4Most Masters Feedback Thread

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Re: 4Most Masters Feedback Thread

Post by Stitchy » Sat Feb 06, 2016 10:33 pm

i really like the format

the only thing i noticed that at some point me and trigz were left in a game with 8 turns to go
trigz had 8 unicorns 2 archers and 2 goblins and i had nothing but a teleport cause i wasted all on killing jim (while trigz waited)
at that point i could not kill trigz but surviving would not give me any points extra either so basically i spend 8 turns running away for no other reason than to not give trigz an extra point, to me this seems rather negative

another note i have is that going for a kill especially early in game is a real disadvantage since you waste a lot of cards getting a kill and you dont get any extra reward for it, so basically its not advisable to attack, which will lead to passive/defensive playing, which is fine with me if its intended but it is in fact punishing attacking

I had one game where i killed 2 wizards with a lot of effort and a lot of cards and then the last guy just turtled and i did not have the resources left to attack him ending the game in equal points. The last guy virtually had done nothing except stacking a defense and still he got the same score. Since i could not defeat him the position for me was that i could not even gain more points by surviving.Not dieing would just deny him points but that was the most i could get.So we had a 5 turn standoff with both sides not moving

im not good at maths but i suspect that some bonus points for drawing and some bonus points for kills could help with making the game more rewarding for agressive play
im looking for a smart idea here that doesnt overcomplicates things if that doesnt exist so be it, but it would make things better
Last edited by Stitchy on Sun Feb 07, 2016 1:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 4Most Masters Feedback Thread

Post by SlipperyJim » Sat Feb 06, 2016 11:01 pm

For me what I disliked was the meta game thinking.

I am playing a 4 player game and suddenly I have to think about which player has a meta overall score and so I should go for them first.

I would rather just play 5 x 4 player games and not have to consider anything other than just winning.

This is the nature of asynch and my own preferences. :)


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Re: 4Most Masters Feedback Thread

Post by Obsilium » Sun Feb 07, 2016 1:21 am

For me, the goal of playing a 4 player game is to be the last wizard standing, period. If you didn't manage to survive until the end of the game, nothing you did in the game matters. Where I see the problems lie are evaluating draws, especially with respect to endgame situations. I think that many people play too passively in the endgame (for instance you have greater freedom to move your creatures into unfavorable engagements because losing your creatures won't kill you like it would with 20 turns remaining), so my proposal and scoring system is designed to disincentivize situations where all players sit back and don't fight.

I'm not sure I like sharing 12 points evenly in case of a draw, for instance it would equate one win to two two player draws. I find the difference between a win and a draw is often just RNG if you have played well enough.

I can agree with Mr_Twister's point about the player killing two wizards sitting back, so perhaps an all-kill should be given 4 or 5 points.

With regards to Contra's complaint about the game with Trigz, to me that's part of the process. There is also technique involved in preserving enough space during the middlegame that you have time in the endgame to run away should things go badly. That's what I did against Spite's army in the four way draw and I think I fully deserved my survival, even going so far as to leave my mount vulnerable in order to try and subvert a dragon that would give me winning chances. For Contra's other case, my proposal works.

For Jim, all I can say is that in a tournament, you also need to play the table if you are interested in winning. That is just a consequence of having correlated games.
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Re: 4Most Masters Feedback Thread

Post by Stitchy » Sun Feb 07, 2016 3:07 am

hm ok i wouldnt call them complaints
its more like points of attention

i can see the survival idea being a point but the downside of it is that you will get draws and a defensive playstyle
i just thought that with some minor tweaks to scoring this could be countered
but if its too much hassle or not possible then its np

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Re: 4Most Masters Feedback Thread

Post by Mazy » Sun Feb 07, 2016 5:13 am

I quite like the idea of a bigger points differential between places, it can sometimes make a difference in terms of approach. I'm thinking more like typical score table methods used in sports leagues, something like: 1st = 6 pts, 2nd = 3 pts 3rd = 1 pt, 4th = 0 pts..(Or 6/4/2/0 for a more even spread). When there's not much score difference between the top 3 finishing places it can possibly create some stalematey situations.

Bonus points is also a good mechanic for league tables, for example bonus pts for wizard kills. Whether that be 1 pt per wizard kill added to your overall pts total, or just bonus points that represent your 'goal difference' e.g, player 3 and player 4 both have 10 pts each but player 4 has more wizard kills so is placed above player 3 (on better 'goal difference').

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Re: 4Most Masters Feedback Thread

Post by SpiteAndMalice » Sun Feb 07, 2016 5:44 am

I think it all comes down to playstyle.

You can either like to play aggressive and dislike defensive players because they thwart your play style.

Or you can like to play defensive and dislike aggressive players because they try to thwart your own.

Bonus points do reward aggressive players, but I don't think that 4 way games should especially be about aggressive play to begin with, there's enough of that in duels.

Bonus points also do something else though, they'll promote play where players hang back in order to steal kills from one another. You won't get the same coordinated pressure on players who look vulnerable where it doesn't matter so much who gets the kills, just removing a player is enough. If you know that one of you will get an extra point for that kill then you'll both be trying to rob each other of it. Good or bad, I think you're creating a totally different type of game if you make this change, it's not as simple as saying that it 'just' rewards aggressive play, it also rewards this 3rd type of play. (This already happens to an extent via 33 point mana values for killing wizards, but it'll stretch a lot further if it leads to tournament points).

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Re: 4Most Masters Feedback Thread

Post by Stitchy » Sun Feb 07, 2016 3:31 pm

well its 2 problems imo

1. the defensive style vs the attacking (bonus for kills or not)

the investment in cards of attacking doesnt weigh up to the advantage of 33mana
i think a bonus could help here but it should be real small
like u get 4 points for every wizard that died and only 1 bonus for a kill
(i suck at maths so bare with me, its just to show how little the bonus could be)

2. the problem that at some point you can not gain anything from staying alive

let me explain case 2 again:

2 wizards left. 1 with a huge army the other with nothing
the guy that has nothing can not kill the other one but surviving nets him nothing either
so why bother running away for 8 turns when dying has the same score?

i think there should be an incentive to survive however small
because now i will look at the table and when the opponent isnt a threat to me i can just die
and maybe disadvantage some other guy in the table, which would be unfair imo

but i can see the hassle when scoring gets overly complicated so it has to be something simple and small or else it isnt worth it coz the system is kinda working