my problems with realms

For Wizard Kings (and higher) to discuss the Realm Editor and the creation of realms.
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SpiteAndMalice
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Re: my problems with realms

Post by SpiteAndMalice » Sat Nov 28, 2015 11:20 pm

NoWorries wrote:I believe that there are more than a few realm creators who are holding back on developing realms until after the next update in which we anticipate improved realm creation tools.
I suspect that this is also true for some people.

There's also the element of having to wait 2000 play throughs before being able to improve a realm if they are upgraded and not having the power to recall them myself. I made one small mistake in the first realm that I created, it was frustrating not being able to do anything about it.
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Re: my problems with realms

Post by anjovi » Sun Nov 29, 2015 5:54 am

It's a tricky situation...

On one hand it's pretty handy to have people to go back and forth with to polish up a realm release the thing knowing it'll be mistake free. Though i did remember having a concern for player's who'd feel cheated as they simply wanted to create stuff and share it (like mario maker)

I'm not sure how the king tier is being marketed but this could be very important to address if you want to stave off any potential sourness. I originally pledged to king so i could support the game and try to get more content done for the game, because i want to see this baby make it! I personally wouldn't have bothered if the game was up and on the go with a bunch of realms, procedural stuff, etc. and didn't require the content...though it did become a bit addicting (practicing writing and what have you)

Yeah I'm not sure what the current expectations were from folks. I honestly would have just bought mario maker or learned to become a DM, etc. if i wanted to scratch that make stuff for people to play itch....really don't know. I sort of seen the whole content creation as a means for backers to donate, make their stamp on the game while working alongside dev's (or some creation system that automated this stuff) to make sure it was up to standards..Though i didn't even know what the realms stuff would be like back in the kickstarter days.

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Farious
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Re: my problems with realms

Post by Farious » Sun Nov 29, 2015 8:59 am

anjovi wrote:It's a tricky situation...

On one hand it's pretty handy to have people to go back and forth with to polish up a realm release the thing knowing it'll be mistake free. Though i did remember having a concern for player's who'd feel cheated as they simply wanted to create stuff and share it (like mario maker)
For me, it's more a quality than a content thing. If you explain the reasoning for something being a certain way it'll probably be fine with me provided it doesn't give the player an achievement for little work for the selected Level of difficulty. The problem without moderation was that the Realm system was being deliberately abused by people producing loot farms or Realms with little content.
anjovi wrote:I'm not sure how the king tier is being marketed but this could be very important to address if you want to stave off any potential sourness. I originally pledged to king so i could support the game and try to get more content done for the game, because i want to see this baby make it! I personally wouldn't have bothered if the game was up and on the go with a bunch of realms, procedural stuff, etc. and didn't require the content...though it did become a bit addicting (practicing writing and what have you)
I think since the moderation process guide is pinned to the Realm Editor most people will be ok with the process. Realm rejection doesn't mean bin it, it probably just means 'whoops you've accidentally typed X instead of Y' etc. Personally I expect any Realm I make to be sent back because I've missed something. I also pledged to be King so I could support the game, I didn't honestly expect to want to spend the entire time in Realms! But last night for instance I had my most fun match ever against an invader & there is something rewarding about the guy who I helped defeat a Wizard Lord who'd made mincemeat of him before. I think once people get to know the mods they'll be fine in understanding why changes had been asked, and heck if you don't like my decision I'm happy for you ask another mod to look at it - all I care about is getting good content on this great game.

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Re: my problems with realms

Post by Al-Khwarizmi » Sun Nov 29, 2015 10:08 am

I think the solution to many (if not most) of the problems being mentioned is having moderation as a means to distinguish the realms that are fit for the public to play (as a kind of seal of approval), but still allow the other realms to be played, with a prominent warning that they are user-generated content and there is no warranty at all about their quality, and that if you want quality content you should go to the approved realms instead. And if you are worried about loot farms, maybe make the loot generated in those realms just not count, too.

If I want to create a realm for my friends only, with goofy humor, maybe even with inside jokes, why shouldn't I be able to do that, as long as the general public is not misled into thinking that it's interesting content for them? In Team Fortress 2 (sorry to quote this game so much, but honestly it did everything multiplayer and social just right - and if you don't believe me, note that it is eight years old and it's still the fourth game with the most active players on Steam!) there are lots of unofficial servers with all kinds of wacky modifications, some are just awful and some are lots of fun (you can shoot around Mario Kart tracks and things like that). They are clearly marked as unofficial so no one mistakes them for the content they've been playing for and goes to criticize them on Steam reviews.

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Re: my problems with realms

Post by anjovi » Mon Nov 30, 2015 5:39 pm

So as I play realms as a level 34 wizard with most of the talismans what i'm finding is that:

The context to play: Trying out different load outs/play styles and playing some heavy coop battles. I'm finding that the armor and staffs don't offer me much incentive because i usually just end up with less useful versions of the stuff i already have. I'm talking about the random shop packs you get, the realm shops mitigates this quite well.

but generally it's mainly the game play that keeps me coming back although it does mainly boil down to me not being in the mood to pvp it up. It'd be interesting to see some sort stats of what you gathered from people playing PVE vs PVP as it'd add some perspective to this whole thing.

Really feel like realms mode could hit a home run but it feels like it just needs some little chunks of meat here and there, even if its stuff thats inconsequential to the main mechanics (i.e random encounters and possibility of invaders when walking on certain tiles, marauders and villagers that reinforce certain choke points, possibility of neutral creatures in said random invader scenarios, "epic" ruins were you've got this insane challenge to overcome, Creature mutations on certain creatures/lords, queuing up for regular pvp matches while exploring realms, etc.)

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Re: my problems with realms

Post by Kahangriel » Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:28 am

I've been playing the realms a lot and there are four things at the top of my mind I would like to suggest. I think these would be very easy to implement:

Villages becoming neutral again rather than destroyed
I find it a little frustrating how sometimes you recruit a village, move away to continue exploring and suddenly a marauder appears from a part of the map you hadn't explored yet and razes the village before a single creature had spawned. Presently the only solution is to babysit the village for a while until it is defensible, which is a bit stressing since the game encourages you not to waste time. Why not just have marauders return villages to neutral status, so that you could possibly recruit them again?

Being able to stop moving
Sometimes I move several hexes to a part of the map where I've been already but while I'm moving a marauder shows up. I would like to have the option of interrupting my movement so that I can go deal with the marauder. Evidently you can always move one hex at a time, but being able to stop would be much better.

Not being forced to do battle
Presently if you move your wizard to an hex containing an enemy wizard you are forced to fight them. However, there are times when I arrive at that hex before my village allies by mistake, meaning that I would prefer to go back and wait another couple of turns so that my allies will assist me in the fight. Or I may just change my mind and decide to do something else before attacking that particular hex. I understand being forced to fight when teleporting or flying to an hex held by an enemy wizard, but if you're going there on foot you should have the option to return to the hex whence you came.

Being able to replay realms without having your score erased
I am not too fond of the whole losing-points-for-days-passed thing, as it encourages people to rush through the realms in order to get the highest possible score rather than trying to make sure they see everything that the realms have to offer, namely checking every event. Be it as it may, couldn't we at least keep our scores when replaying a realm? I sometimes feel like going over a realm again, but then I end up not doing so because I got a high score last time I played and I think I may have some difficulty scoring so high again. After conquering a realm I would like to have the possibility of going back and trying to see every event without having to worry about playing again after that just to try to get another high score.
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Re: my problems with realms

Post by Mazy » Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:45 pm

Yes, I agree with all three Kah, they are pretty much the same issues I ponder most when playing the map phase of realms, especially the first two (actually all three!).

I didn't know how to articulate what it is that is slightly off with those three things, and probably just accepted that 'that's just the way it works' (because they are mostly things related to random spawning marauders) but yeah there's probably an easy rework to solve all three issues.

Edit- Oh you've added a forth thing :) ...yeah I agree with that one to... I've just come to accept that the whole 'score related to days passed' thing is staying but I've never been a fan of the mechanic, it gives me two reasons to never revisit a realm, the scoring criteria and entry fee, otherwise I would probably re-run realms to.

I still feel there's got to be a much better way of scoring realm runs but I guess it's a bit like the VP's debate for multi-player!. What would be a better alternative scoring system, I would say a score based only on achievements within a realm, that might allow things such as path-finding to not have the biggest influence on the score.

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Re: my problems with realms

Post by Kahangriel » Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:12 pm

Mazy wrote:I still feel there's got to be a much better way of scoring realm runs but I guess it's a bit like the VP's debate for multi-player!. What would be a better alternative scoring system, I would say a score based only on achievements within a realm, that might allow things such as path-finding to not have the biggest influence on the score.
I understand that it's good to have a system preventing people from taking crazy chances particularly in the earlier matches because they know that if they get killed they can just start over and do it all again. When we had the auto-resolve option we could actually complete realms doing only the palace fight, although we weren't getting any xp from the fights. And it may be that there are other ways of exploiting realms, such as doing an encounter where you get experience over and over again. I just think there are better ways to get around stuff like this.

For instance, why not have it so that you can only get experience from killing an enemy wizard once? You can play a realm, kill an enemy wizard and get xp, but that same enemy wizard will no longer give xp when you play the realm again. Same thing with money, if you finish a realm with 400 coins, then the next time you play it you will only take any money with you back to limbo if you manage to earn more than 400 coins. I think this would encourage people to get the most from every realm, meaning that they would revisit realms to make sure they kill every enemy wizard and check every encounter on the map. And isn't the point of realms encouraging people to go back, rather than make them afraid of losing the score they got already? Some time ago Arenji was asking about feedback on one of her realms and I wanted to play it again so as to have it fresh in my memory, but on the other hand I was pleased with the score I had and did not want to risk not being able to repeat it.
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Re: my problems with realms

Post by Tess » Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:39 pm

Mazy wrote: I still feel there's got to be a much better way of scoring realm runs but I guess it's a bit like the VP's debate for multi-player!. What would be a better alternative scoring system, I would say a score based only on achievements within a realm, that might allow things such as path-finding to not have the biggest influence on the score.
This is an excellent idea - As Realm designers perhaps we should be able to offer (or remove) points as a potential encounter outcome?

This will make even more sense once the encounter system is able to handle branching and responding to the presence of named mercs in your party. E.g. you might receive a big bonus by getting that named dwarf all the way to the final battle without them dying. I love this idea. It would also enable me to offset the time-penalty for exploring by creating encounters that give points which justify the excursion.

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Re: my problems with realms

Post by Farious » Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:04 pm

Tess wrote:
Mazy wrote: I still feel there's got to be a much better way of scoring realm runs but I guess it's a bit like the VP's debate for multi-player!. What would be a better alternative scoring system, I would say a score based only on achievements within a realm, that might allow things such as path-finding to not have the biggest influence on the score.
This is an excellent idea - As Realm designers perhaps we should be able to offer (or remove) points as a potential encounter outcome?

This will make even more sense once the encounter system is able to handle branching and responding to the presence of named mercs in your party. E.g. you might receive a big bonus by getting that named dwarf all the way to the final battle without them dying. I love this idea. It would also enable me to offset the time-penalty for exploring by creating encounters that give points which justify the excursion.
+1. It would be nice if the time penalty was ditched entirely though or there was an option to - I want people to explore my Realms, the time penalty actively encourages them not to.

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