drawing the line for lore friendliness stuff

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anjovi
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drawing the line for lore friendliness stuff

Post by anjovi » Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:17 am

So with the new moderation system an emphasis on lore seems to have disqualified a lot of otherwise good conceptual realms like spite's trivonia realm or psylum's carnival realm.

But i wonder were the boundaries should be placed...I personally feel that stuff like this can have it's place. Some eccentric wizard for example could indulge himself in the trivia of some euro rock bands from a parallel dimension. Or if one made a carnival out of his realm were all of the subjects complied in the act with glee or inner horror.

that's just me though and i wonder if realms like this could meet the criteria in other areas (shaping the land to be less symmetrical, having the context of these encounters form some sort of narrative, etc.) and perhaps make the cut.

because otherwise i could see the process being relatively painless..after the 1st initial "ugh...revision.." you could just go back and forth putting a little bit of time here and there addressing critiques/suggestions and eventually releasing the thing.

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SpiteAndMalice
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Re: drawing the line for lore friendliness stuff

Post by SpiteAndMalice » Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:55 am

I think as moderators you need to be careful that you strike a balance between helping users to create realms, blocking inappropriate content, and becoming the realm police.

Helping users is to my mind is things like highlighting spelling and grammar. If you're doing that for me, and checking that encounters work as intended etc, they I appreciate the job you do.

Blocking inappropriate content, covers anything vulgar and obscene, foul langauge, a map in the shape of a huge cock and balls, that kind of thing. Again that's an appreciated role (though I may want to still see what you've blocked) ;-)

Becoming the realm police is telling other users that their content doesn't fit with the lore of the game, or that land can't have a straight edge to it. (we can summon dragons, but we can't draw a straight line?) This totally puts me off both designing and playing realms.

I personally, (and I suspect that I won't be alone in this) don't care about the lore of the game. The realm that I was most interested in playing at the point where they got rejected was Bigtrac's Talismanic realm. The reason for this was precisely because that realm was something different. I found that exciting. If I had known about the Carnival realm I would have been very keen to play that too.

I'm sorry to say this, but Chaos all around isn't a game where I buy into the lore element of it. It's not Skyrym, it's wizards chucking stuff at each other on a map. When I play Chaos I just simply want to have fun, and I find all the lore stuff to be dull as dishwater. I dont want to play a dozen realms which are all about saving the poor elves from the nasty Goblin Wizard.

I think all that is needed when moderating realms in this respect is a tagging system whereby a realm can be marked as either official content, a realm that fits with lore, or a realm that doesn't.

Make the info clear to the players, and then let the players themselves decide which kinds of realm they want to play. I don't think that as mods you should be making that decision for them.
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SpiteAndMalice
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Re: drawing the line for lore friendliness stuff

Post by SpiteAndMalice » Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:04 am

Regards the Triv realm that I created. These were the reasons behind it:

I'd been running quizzes on lawandchaos for a while (usually after Spite Nights). I wanted to create a realm that reflected that, as for a few of us as players that had become part of our 'lore' that we'd created around the game.

I was aware that players often would skip dialogue and description within realms. I wanted to make a realm where reading dialogue would be important to player's success.

The realm creation system was new, I was seeing a lot of samey realms appear. I wanted to make something different.

I'm aware that as a realm that Triv broke a lot of rules in the design guide. (Rules that I don't agree with, that didn't exist when I created that realm or for that matter when I purchased Wizard King tier). But the questions I would put to anyone who played Triv are these? Beyond my realm not fitting with the lore of the game, was it a badly designed realm? Did you enjoy playing it? Does its existence add to the content which is available to players within the game?
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Al-Khwarizmi
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Re: drawing the line for lore friendliness stuff

Post by Al-Khwarizmi » Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:39 am

SpiteAndMalice wrote: I personally, (and I suspect that I won't be alone in this) don't care about the lore of the game. The realm that I was most interested in playing at the point where they got rejected was Bigtrac's Talismanic realm. The reason for this was precisely because that realm was something different. I found that exciting. If I had known about the Carnival realm I would have been very keen to play that too.

I'm sorry to say this, but Chaos all around isn't a game where I buy into the lore element of it. It's not Skyrym, it's wizards chucking stuff at each other on a map. When I play Chaos I just simply want to have fun, and I find all the lore stuff to be dull as dishwater. I dont want to play a dozen realms which are all about saving the poor elves from the nasty Goblin Wizard.

I think all that is needed when moderating realms in this respect is a tagging system whereby a realm can be marked as either official content, a realm that fits with lore, or a realm that doesn't.

Make the info clear to the players, and then let the players themselves decide which kinds of realm they want to play. I don't think that as mods you should be making that decision for them.
You are not alone. I also don't care much about the lore, and I would really like to play realms out of the ordinary. For example, I love humor and I would like to play comedy/parody realms. I was quite disappointed when I saw in the creation guide that humor, breaking the fourth wall, etc. was discouraged.

I do think the solution is the tagging system you mention. I understand people who care about the lore and I think they should be able to play only in-lore realms. I also understand that atypical realms, just as plain bad realms, can leave a bad impression in some players. This is all fixed if the moderation system is used to mark a realm as "official", but still let players play unofficial realms at their own risk. A message could be shown saying something like "This realm is user-generated content and has not been approved as official by the moderators. No guarantees are made regarding the quality or the lore adequacy of this realm. Are you sure you want to play anyway?"

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Re: drawing the line for lore friendliness stuff

Post by Viking34 » Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:48 am

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: I do think the solution is the tagging system you mention. I understand people who care about the lore and I think they should be able to play only in-lore realms. I also understand that atypical realms, just as plain bad realms, can leave a bad impression in some players. This is all fixed if the moderation system is used to mark a realm as "official", but still let players play unofficial realms at their own risk. A message could be shown saying something like "This realm is user-generated content and has not been approved as official by the moderators. No guarantees are made regarding the quality or the lore adequacy of this realm. Are you sure you want to play anyway?"
I think this 'unofficial tag' would be a great solution. The ideas could also be combined, where mods put specific tags for the 'official' rules the realm does not adhere to, such as "breaks the fourth wall", "no linear story", etc. That way there would also be a clear distinction between realms that are marked as unofficial because they simply do not meet the right level of quality, and realms that are marked as unofficial because every single encounter is a trivia question.

Vulgar or offensive realms would still obviously be outright rejected during moderation.

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gary
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Re: drawing the line for lore friendliness stuff

Post by gary » Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:34 am

I am with Sam in this one. The lore means absolutely nothing to me and adds nothing to the game for me. For those that dig it then thats cool but the simple fact it you dont need to know anything about the lore to play the game or have fun in the game so it alone should not drive any user created content on its own.

For me, we need to be encourging players to use their imagination and bring something to the game. And if they are willing to spend the time on creating something then good on them. Sam's trivia realms was fun, maybe the most fun of the realms I played and if I want to create a realm themed around Jet Set Willy, then as long as there is no naughty words or offensive content then you know what, I should be allowed to submit without fear of it being rejected because it is not in with the lore of the game.

Its just a game, games are supposed to be fun, right?

Anything that stops it being fun for the player or the designer isnt a good thing.
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MattyRasker
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Re: drawing the line for lore friendliness stuff

Post by MattyRasker » Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:24 pm

Yes, I'm not big on the Lore stuff either, but if Realms are being moderated to the extent that non - lore based Realms are being excluded, then yes there should be an unofficial Realms collection that is not lore based.

I enjoyed Psylums Carnival realm and Spites Trivia one. It would be an utter shame to not see these again.

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Re: drawing the line for lore friendliness stuff

Post by krayzkrok » Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:28 pm

There has to be flexibility with this stuff, otherwise an overzealous moderator will block any slight deviation from established lore. The whole "no straight lines" thing actually killed my enthusiasm to work on my realm, because I'd intentionally given the realm a slightly artificial look and written encounters and descriptions to imply that some incredibly powerful force had helped to shape the realm, and a slightly artificial look to the realm's design was a clue to all that which the character figured out as they journeyed through it. If that kind of thing is going to be unacceptable within the rigid rules of the realm / lore, then it really inhibits your imagination. Besides, I really couldn't be bothered to try and re-write it to become more generic, and that's the last time I worked on it.

anjovi
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Re: drawing the line for lore friendliness stuff

Post by anjovi » Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:10 pm

I like the idea of just having realm categories, were creators can choose whether or not they want to follow the more rigid rules or not.

what i see for a submission process:

1)when submitting select whether your submitting for a lore friendly realm or a non lore friendly realm. The criteria for both of these types will be different and those who want to put the extra time in cross referencing lore with realms can do so. You'd still want to meet criteria like spell checking and non loot farm stuffs but it'd be generally more lax.

2)have a tab in the realm selection list that you can simply switch through.

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Mazy
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Re: drawing the line for lore friendliness stuff

Post by Mazy » Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:18 pm

I have to admit I've only just got round to reading the realm creation guide just now (I'm lazy!), I probably didn't read it earlier due to not being a king/realm creator myself so I figured it's not my area.

The guide does seem restrictive, I assumed the moderation system was mostly just to stop 'farm realms'. Also, some criteria might be hard to judge, for instance 'realm navigation too convoluted' is noted as a rejection point yet some realms with navigational/positional issues have sneaked through (although I'm probably only saying that coz I keep getting banished lol).

There's sometimes a chance that most encounters won't be read if they are too generic, some of the most engaging realms I played in beta were non lore realms, standalone unique interesting realms.

Is there a way to have a series of 'Story Mode' lore heavy realms penned by Allen and devs? (this would be awesome) and also have separate 'user created' realms that are reasonably unrestricted.

In beta being able to create realms (as a lord) was quite enjoyable, there were no limitations/guidelines as such, I wouldn't say the possibilities were endless but I was able to come up with a few themes that were sometimes either quirky/humorous or different/interesting. You could say some of them were kind of like 'alternative lore', just like how modders apply 'total conversion' mods to games (e.g, there are several alternative lores/mods for Xcom that incorporate the original lore), Or how a series spin-off creates a new branch of lore (e.g, Star Wars)

Creative freedom would allow standalone realms to explore themes of wizard piracy (wizards as pirates), alien wizards (not of earth history, a tinge of sci-fi) or a wizard desperate to rid his curse of immortality by fighting to become mortal (which is my own made up lore that I have in my head when I play multiplayer, infinite battles of never dying, always thrown back in to Limbo). Surely anything goes within a self contained realm? like each one can be an alternative reality or fresh Twilight Zone episode.

Also realms are probably at their best when they aren't taken too seriously, I think they can work better if they play out more like quirky Douglas Adams-esque short stories about strange encounters in strange worlds (Hitchhikers Guide to Realms). There's only so much you can do with 'serious' and like others have pointed out 'serious' doesn't seem to fit within the framework of a bit of wandering around, getting lost and fighting a few battles. Save the serious stuff for the epic RPG's.

Will the current guidelines make players more likely to aspire to becoming a king/realm creator? or make it less likely. After all, the 'bad realms' weren't that bad (they still had battles in them) and you didn't have to play them again once you had ran through them once.

On the plus side the new encounters features should prove very useful for the story telling aspects, maybe the guidelines will become more flexible over time. (p.s. thanks to the mods for volunteering for the process)

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