Candle and Mask 3

For Wizard Kings (and higher) to discuss the Realm Editor and the creation of realms.
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gary
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Candle and Mask 3

Post by gary » Sun Jan 31, 2016 4:58 pm

Hey Farious

Regarding this realm.

Just been playing it and I have to say while I always love the thought and effort you put in to realms this one has seriously irked me.

I had spent some time in it and had well over 1000 gold from lots of ally fights as well as fights in the realm but I have been forced to abandon it as I couldn't progress as I couldn't travel anywhere new and the days were running out and all because I chose not to hire the dragon.

To me this is not good. You are forcing a player in to hiring a merc when they may not want to. I never hire mercs as I enjoy the challenge of going battling on my own and dont like having to pay for a merc and their travel costs. Also this is right at the start of the realm, locking out the realm based on the very first decision seems very unfair and not fun.

It might be worth rethinking this.

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Kahangriel
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Re: Candle and Mask 3

Post by Kahangriel » Sun Jan 31, 2016 9:59 pm

garyuk wrote:I never hire mercs as I enjoy the challenge of going battling on my own and dont like having to pay for a merc and their travel costs.
I understand what you're saying, but I think event mercs are another way of making each realm unique. I enjoy that aspect of being torn between wanting to use your merc in battle (particularly such a strong one as a dragon) and wanting to keep it alive so that you may bring it all the way to a specific place where it will trigger something. It's quite similar to the choice between using your wizard in the forefront or keeping them in the rear with the gear.

Still, I agree that you should not be forced to recruit a merc or be unable to progress in case they die in battle. Of course, ideally you would not have your score reset when replaying a realm, so that you could experience both recruiting and not recruiting mercs without having to worry about losing your previous score.
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Re: Candle and Mask 3

Post by anjovi » Mon Feb 01, 2016 1:02 am

I would agree that having a creature in party shouldn't be mandatory to complete a realm though perhaps a branching path towards said goal would be reasonable. Haven't gotten to playing it yet so i'm not exactly sure if this is the case.

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Re: Candle and Mask 3

Post by Prudent Viper » Mon Feb 01, 2016 11:47 am

Couldn't disagree more.
The battles I fought with Gortun were ranked up with my favourite moments in Chaos Reborn. I'm not sure why but I really became attached to that loveable dragon.

True, playing with a dragon in tow might not be to your preference, but you only have to fight three battles with Gortun before his mini quest is over and you can safely retire him. There's nothing stopping you from simply not using the dragon in battle, by flying him to an island for a timeout.

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Farious
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Re: Candle and Mask 3

Post by Farious » Mon Feb 01, 2016 4:34 pm

Double post.
Last edited by Farious on Mon Feb 01, 2016 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Candle and Mask 3

Post by Farious » Mon Feb 01, 2016 4:38 pm

garyuk wrote:It might be worth rethinking this.
Thanks for the feedback & I appreciated you think I put effort into my Realms - I try too :)

With regards to Gortun, I'm trying to find ways of challenging players and providing them different experiences. The importance of Gortun is hinted at in an Encounter in Part 2 & in the Introduction to Part 3 it does say 'It is therefore VITAL that Gortun survives the voyage through the Three Cities otherwise you will be left stranded.'

I thought forcing a player to survive three battles would be an interesting challenge for them whilst giving them a Dragon to help would be a good balance until they have a couple of Mercs. Personally, I'm not inclined to change it, sorry. This is because I don't view CR as a game in which someone should be comfortable with their build and play style - I want them to come unstuck at some point & implement a strategy different to what they accustomed to. For example, in DeusEx I'm a sword guy though occasionally I have to use LAMs. I don't like using LAMs (& have even blown myself up on occasion) but overcoming those scenarios is part of the reward of the game. Hope that makes some sense and your not too miffed! Anyway, as @PrudentViper suggests, if you really don't like the Dragon, the easiest thing to do is complete his mission then dismiss him.

I really appreciate your feedback, so keep it up.

Farious

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Re: Candle and Mask 3

Post by NoWorries » Mon Feb 01, 2016 5:00 pm

Yes, it's fair to force players to make consequential role-play choices predicated upon players actually reading and deciphering the content of a realm's lore.

Part of there being consequential choices is that there are consequences for choosing incorrectly or else failing at a chosen task/quest. It would be tragic if every realm could be overcome without players ever having to read anything or pay attention to the encounter choices they make. If players want to go blindly from battle to battle, then they may as well just play the AI repeatedly in the offline hotseat mode or else jump into the PvP matchmaker.

Moreover, asking realm designers to craft truly open-world realm RPG experiences is asking quite a bit of our realm designers and the realm creation tools at their disposal.
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gary
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Re: Candle and Mask 3

Post by gary » Mon Feb 01, 2016 5:36 pm

I got all the reasons behind it and why you done it the way you did.

I guess for me it would have been interesting if by not hiring the dragon it then opened up a slightly different route through the realm but ultimately a lot harder one.

Maybe to hammer the point home further would have it so there is no option to not hire the dragon. Just have one button say you are hiring it as having the option not to seems mute if the success of the realm depends so highly on it surviving 3 fights.
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Re: Candle and Mask 3

Post by Farious » Mon Feb 01, 2016 7:43 pm

garyuk wrote:I guess for me it would have been interesting if by not hiring the dragon it then opened up a slightly different route through the realm but ultimately a lot harder one.

Maybe to hammer the point home further would have it so there is no option to not hire the dragon. Just have one button say you are hiring it as having the option not to seems mute if the success of the realm depends so highly on it surviving 3 fights.
I pretty much with @NoWorries, but it's fair point about the button however, unfortunately, the tools we have don't let us take it away otherwise I probably would have. Also, you may be interested to know, that in Part 2 there are in fact two routes which depend upon whether Uzhak is with you at a certain point at a certain time :)

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Re: Candle and Mask 3

Post by anjovi » Tue Feb 02, 2016 3:16 am

on the subject of keeping track of encounters, their really needs to be some kind of log that keeps track of all of these encounters as you play. I could imagine being lost at a place on the other end of the realm that makes reference to *insert garbly fantasy name/title/word*.

I'd also just like to be able to recount what was going on if i take a day or 2 break in between plays. I think my problem has to do with the general presentation of encounters/story/world building/etc. in the game that makes it harder to remember. Just something that you could open that simply reiterated the encounter text (as written) and the following outcomes you got (based on the exact choice you picked)

otherwise i'm sort of in the middle on the original topic.

I like having these alternative challenges that have some weight to them (you could argue losing the realm does this) though due to the nature of the game (all or nothing for winning/losing) it makes it a little harder to swallow.

Nothing really in the game to accomodate it yet but i feel like the most interesting outcome would be the ability to allow players to beat the realm with the basic objectives fulfilled (killing king) though having designs to accommodate optional objectives on following playthroughs would be ace. Right now all you can really do is unlock a certain encounter bits, though having little optional medals that a creator can set for a realm based on their own criteria could go a long way in selling it.

example:
Creature alive
Wizard killed
Flag set
Encounter outcome met

It doesn't have to have any meta game value, just something that could allow the creator to go "hey....bet you can't do this"
Perhaps you could have some medals visible so the player knows what to do to unlock them and have some secret ones...leave it to the creator's discretion.

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Update: after playing it myself and losing fight 2 I don't feel that it's actually that bad. It's only put in place for the 1st 3 battles which doesn't really demand that much of a time commitment.

Also happened to be invaded in which i failed to pegasus casts and lost Gortun to a vengeance spell (or the non los attack..keep forgetting if i'm getting it right or not lol) Though it made things interesting as even though I had that starting advantage it led to me playing in a way that allowed the invader to take an advantage (me frantically trying to cast some sort of safety net for the dragon)

I could see little interesting dynamics like this make for some interesting gameplay. For example playing coop with a friend to run into a invader with a ranged staff, mount taboo, a particular reinforcement setup as well as some other stuff that could possibly make things more interesting (ideas: Objectives, Special abilities/advantages that wizard lords get)

Another thought that came up had to do with invading another player to recognize a familiar character. I personally love the idea of playing through the realm with Gortun and on the off chance invading another player who happened to be playing that part in the realm with Gortun. The player would now have knowledge of that character's context and play to sabotage whoever they were invading...i personally love this and think this kind of thing can add so much to the multiplayer/socializing aspect of the game. Something that could be enhanced with said ideas like objectives,specia..yaddaya

Maybe you'd get to a point as a player were an invader knew you were on the 5th battle with a character and knowing how much pain it'd cause you,they'd simply show you mercy by surrendering...and you'd be like..."whaa?" stuff like this is what made dark souls pvp really memorable on the occasion.

Some well thought out coop system/realm features could really make for something insanely good...Though the thought of whether or not that falls within the scope of a 20$ game is something else.

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