New Player feedback on tutorials

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Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:05 am

  • I would like to improve the game tutorials, so if you are a new player (in the last month) I would very much appreciate your feedback on your experience.

    - Did you play the tutorials at all? If so, how much? Did you play all the challenges?
    - Did you choose law or chaos mode?
    - Specify some of the problems or things that confused you?
    - Are they too easy/difficult? Is there a reasonable difficulty ramp?
    - Are the tutorials too long/short?
    - Any improvement suggestions in general?
    - Any suggestions for improving the interface? improving feedback?
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    Julian Gollop
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Tue Aug 02, 2016 10:58 am

  • I'm not a new player, but I only have limited realms experience. Due to Rafi asking me if I had done the demo realm I had a look. I was banished from the realm after my first or second battle. :shock: I don't even know how or why. Every time I play realms something like this happens, that makes me want to stop playing them.
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    zamug
     
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Tue Aug 02, 2016 11:40 am

  • zamug wrote:I'm not a new player, but I only have limited realms experience. Due to Rafi asking me if I had done the demo realm I had a look. I was banished from the realm after my first or second battle. :shock: I don't even know how or why. Every time I play realms something like this happens, that makes me want to stop playing them.


    The only thing that I can think of that might cause this is if you are killed and you press the button to go back to limbo rather than resurrect. Otherwise the banishing spell bar on the left has to fill up and you get kicked out, but that takes a lot of 'days'.
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    Julian Gollop
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Tue Aug 02, 2016 12:27 pm

  • My "Tutorial Realm of Romero" is often recommended to new players by other players on Steam and on here: I feel like new players often get spanked in the first offline realm. I don't want to be all "you should put my tutorial in the game", but maybe something similar should go in (it would go in training, not in the offline realms, as it has no "story").

    The chaos-mode challenge or tutorial where you have to sword-kill the enemy on a palace map using talismans is hard for me now, and has been complained about as too hard on Steam. I actually ignore the in-game advice somewhat to beat it.

    If there is scope for it, in Chaos mode, at least for early tutorials, I'd've thought something 100% scripted would be good, like the XCOM tutorials (so outcomes appear random, but play the same every time).

    Generally, from chat with new players, people seem to get confused by undead, and don't make good use of illusions/ disbelieve.

    Something to inoculate players against "90%?! BUt.. It failed!!!?"
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    RafiRomero
     
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Tue Aug 02, 2016 1:49 pm

  • RafiRomero wrote:My "Tutorial Realm of Romero" is often recommended to new players by other players on Steam and on here: I feel like new players often get spanked in the first offline realm. I don't want to be all "you should put my tutorial in the game", but maybe something similar should go in (it would go in training, not in the offline realms, as it has no "story").


    Rafi's realm should be an official tutorial, both online, and for the single player campaign.

    RafiRomero wrote:The chaos-mode challenge or tutorial where you have to sword-kill the enemy on a palace map using talismans is hard for me now, and has been complained about as too hard on Steam. I actually ignore the in-game advice somewhat to beat it.


    Challenges should really sit in their own area of the game. Some aren't easy at all.

    RafiRomero wrote:If there is scope for it, in Chaos mode, at least for early tutorials, I'd've thought something 100% scripted would be good, like the XCOM tutorials (so outcomes appear random, but play the same every time).


    I think this would be a good idea, at least whilst explaining things. Maybe break down concepts a bit too. You could teach a lot just using Goblins. Tutorial 1, this is how to move, move your Wizard an pick up that mana. Well done, tutorial 1 is Complete. Tutorial 2 Cast a Goblin. Well done tutorial 2 is complete.

    RafiRomero wrote:Generally, from chat with new players, people seem to get confused by undead, and don't make good use of illusions/ disbelieve.


    I think the good use of illusions is more going from beginner to advanced. It's the things like not knowing how to select your wizard whilst mounted that are more tutorial level confusion to address. Maybe have beginner tutorials, and then advanced tutorials.

    Something to inoculate players against "90%?! BUt.. It failed!!!?"[/quote]
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    SpiteAndMalice
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Tue Aug 02, 2016 1:50 pm

  • Julian Gollop wrote:
    - Did you choose law or chaos mode?


    Re this, all other things being equal you should find that most people will select the left most option. http://www.measuringu.com/blog/left-side-bias.php
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    SpiteAndMalice
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Tue Aug 02, 2016 2:06 pm

  • - Did you play the tutorials at all? If so, how much? Did you play all the challenges?

    I played the full tutorial but skipped the challenges once I realized they were unnecessary. IMO the #1 problem with the tutorials is the challenges which are extremely difficult and not really very educational. As a new player, I found them baffling and frustrating and came very close to quitting the game because of them. I feel very strongly that the challenges should be removed!!

    - Are the tutorials too long/short?

    As I recall (bought the game ~2 months ago), it originally took me 3-4 hours to beat the tutorials (including the challenges I kept trying and failing). I just played through it again today and as a fairly experienced player it took me just over an hour (no challenges). This is WAY too long. It's hard because the game is quite complex and even within that hour there are plenty of things not fully covered but still, this needs to be cut way, way down. I'd say aim for each of the 7 tutorials to be beatable by totally inexperienced players in 3-5 minutes.

    - Are they too easy/difficult? Is there a reasonable difficulty ramp?

    The AI in tutorials should frankly be dumb as rocks. It shouldn't even be trying to win except maybe for a final "now that you know everything, let's have a real fight" battle. These are about learning the mechanics, not winning and losing.

    Now, some thoughts on each tutorial (all based on Chaos; I haven't done the Law ones):

    Tutorial #2:
    - You only get one Law Shift card. It will fail for 20% of players, making this one a slog. Include at least 3 shifts.
    - Highlight the height advantage stuff and the ability to climb up the cliff at the start of the tutorial. I didn't realize this the first time and just started walking towards them on the floor which got me crushed.

    Tutorial #3:
    - Briefly cover illusion/disbelieve strategy, aka. the enemy is more likely to disbelieve low chance spells and you should be suspicious of them too. Don't be obvious with your illusions.

    Tutorial #4:
    - I think Mana should be introduced as early as possible, in Tutorial #1 or 2. Giving the player a couple sprites right away both helps mitigate frustrating early bad RNG runs (my 2nd time through #1 I failed 4 lions in a row!) and lets players know right away that they can influence the odds in their favor. This is the best counter to the "it's all luck!" feeling early Chaos mode can give you.
    - It is not entirely clear that cards are limited and so shouldn't be burned willy nilly. Point out how many cards you get and that if you run out, that's it. Might also be a good time to point at that the game ends after a fix # of turns.

    Tutorial #5:
    - I actually think this would be better if the enemy was casting undead and the tutorial was about how to counter them. Start them off with a skeleton or two and us with a couple living creatures to highlight what can't attack undead, then give us a hand full of undead counters, explaining how they work.

    Tutorial #6:
    - It's surprisingly easy to miss that some spells give you multiple per casts. Highlight exactly how you cast multiple trees, rats, zombies, ect.

    Tutorial #7:
    - Way, way, way too hard. Winning this one requires knowing exactly what you're doing and if your tree/elfs don't pan out, you're completely screwed. The tree->goblin Talisman would probably be easier for new players to figure out since Shadow Trees can attack and Goblins are tougher to kill but still, don't leave us with so few options if they can't get the Talisman going.
    Last edited by yovargas on Tue Aug 02, 2016 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Tue Aug 02, 2016 2:09 pm

  • RafiRomero wrote:I don't want to be all "you should put my tutorial in the game"


    Then allow me - you should put Rafi's tutorial in the game. :P
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Tue Aug 02, 2016 2:44 pm

  • I agree with RafiRomero about the XCom approach if possible though I'm guessing with all the game modes that might be tricky. I'd also somehow make Rafi's Realm an official tutorial & if possible pin it to the top of the Realm list.

    Thinking back to my first game, pre-tutorial's existence, I knew what it was mostly about because of Chaos & Lords of Chaos but the thing that threw me was when I bolted a Wizard but he didn't die; the Pegasus next to him did but because it had died I had no idea or way of finding out why. I therefore think a proper Chaospedia that allows a player to access every Spell Card and ability would help some newbies to understand the game concepts. It would also allow new players who want to to brush up before actually playing. At the start of a players first match it might also be an idea to specifically call out any such Chaospedia with a splash screen as a prompt.
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    Farious
     
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Tue Aug 02, 2016 3:13 pm

  • The Romero tutorial is the definitive realms/SP tutorial, maybe the concept of that style of tutorial could be expanded upon further.. Romero Tutorial #2, and #3 - part one & two etc.. (Raf, Give us the new Twilight Saga)

    I wasn't new when I did the 'Wizard Training' tutorials but I thought they were really good, I can see how it might be useful to revisit them and further break down some of the basics, perhaps in greater detail. Reworking some UI elements might be useful to, mount/wizard icon has already been suggested (or teach how the current UI works)... Another one is perhaps wizard bow awareness, the bow symbol is still quite hard to spot (or remember which wizards are armed with bows already in async games).

    The point Spite makes about left sided bias (with regards to options) is important.. The same thought occurs to me every time I see the menu options arranged as 'law first/chaos second' (left to right). To me that literally reads as.. First option/Default mode = Law mode.. Secondary option/Alternative mode = Chaos mode... perhaps it should be in alphabetical order instead hehe ... some way of re-emphasising chaos mode whilst still encouraging players to learn law mode as well..
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