New Player feedback on tutorials

Discussion about all things related to Chaos Reborn
Tue Aug 02, 2016 3:37 pm

  • Farious wrote:Thinking back to my first game, pre-tutorial's existence, I knew what it was mostly about because of Chaos & Lords of Chaos but the thing that threw me was when I bolted a Wizard but he didn't die; the Pegasus next to him did but because it had died I had no idea or way of finding out why.

    This reminds me of a second suggestion I meant to make last post - I think a separate tutorial just for each of the spells would be great. I know they each have their info tab you can read through but just something where you can see them in all action, especially something highlighting any creature special abilities, would be super helpful to new players. Stuff like Icarus Tower or Crystal Wall are hard to get a good feel for until you actually see them do their thing.
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Tue Aug 02, 2016 4:00 pm

  • I didn't play the tutorials at first, but then I realized that I should, I played them in chaos mode and it was so fun. really liked them.
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Tue Aug 02, 2016 5:40 pm

  • As an experienced player, I did find the tutorials really enjoyable, and the challenges enjoyable and challenging.
    It was really refreshing to have set maps and different victory conditions.
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Tue Aug 02, 2016 7:20 pm

  • 1. Yes did them all + challenges in demo version
    2. Chaos
    3. Some things like how to use tangle vine challenge and attacking on mount took me a while to figure out I can switch while mounted, and the increase cast chance with mana.
    4. Too easy once you know how to cheese it, probably easier in Law mode, maybe okay for a newbie.
    5. a bit Long I guess, some things like the melee challenge could be made shorter ( not easier )
    6. Instead of starting from zero have some fights be more tactical, like a chess puzzle we need to solve, so things are presummoned etc. and give a hint on what to do in that situation with spells, like midgame/endgame fight, this would make them shorter and more fun to solve. Also include some fights with friendly AI and against, adding tactical decisions to helping out your team.
    7. Just the things in #3

    And yes I did RalfiRomero realm first, thanks for that helped greatly.

    Other than the tutorials, but can we set up the AI in forging/test gear?
    Say we can choose mirror or have us change it if I want to try out different builds, like arcane vs heroic etc.

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Tue Aug 02, 2016 8:54 pm

  • Eldvgar wrote:Other than the tutorials, but can we set up the AI in forging/test gear?
    Say we can choose mirror or have us change it if I want to try out different builds, like arcane vs heroic etc.

    you can play the realm 'battle camp'
    this is designed to be a practice arena with 4 different wizards real close to the starting point
    if u always abandon the realm and never finish it it stays free
    its how i test my builds
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Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:32 pm

  • So, I wrote this super long thing filled with frustrations and suggestions, which I may or may not decide to post anyway at some point, but for now, here's the short(-er), sensible(-ish) version:

    It's been awhile, but this is important stuff and until now has been handled very badly.


    * Teaching players the basics of playing the game should be done in less than 20 minutes. No, less than 10, even. Well, less than 5, ideally.

    * All people need to be taught at first is their objective (kill the enemy wizard), how to cast spells, how to select summoned units and how to give them move and attack orders. Leave the equipment and online campaign stuff for another time.

    * ABSOLUTELY NO WALLS OF TEXT WITH DIAGRAMS AND WHATNOT!!! They're disgusting and they scare people off.
    Everything should be done with as little text as possible, clear UI signs - which are sorely missing, right now - and gameplay demonstrations ("Today's lesson is about Magic Bolts: HERE, HAVE A MAGIC BOLT IN THE FACE!", etc.).
    See below for examples of missing UI signs.

    * Consider video demonstrations, maybe? But they'd have to be in-game, playing at the edge of the screen somewhere, without interrupting the gameplay. Alternatively, just use projections/holograms of what's going to happen at any given point.
    Again, see below for examples.


    * There is no way to tell a creature has summoning fatigue before clicking on it. And even then, if I'm a new player, I have to already know the difference between green tiles with normal lines and green tiles with broken-up lines to understand that you're showing me that the creature *could* move there next turn, but *can't* move there now. Just put some kind of symbol over the creature! Or have it play a confused animation or something! And show a tooltip on hovering over the creature/symbol!

    * If I chose the Magic Bolt in the first tutorial level, I can't do anything with it and I'm not given any information about why that is. Show me the tiles in range of the spell, so I can understand that it's supposed to be used somewhere close to my wizard! Tell me with big letters that I can't target empty tiles or those taken up by a friendly creature with it! Even better - loop through a semi-transparent animation of me casting the Magic Bolt towards the tile I'm currently hovering over, so I can see what will happen!

    * Similarly, whenever I've chosen to summon a Lion, show me a Lion on the tile I'm hovering over. Also, there's absolutely no need to wait for the player to select a tile in order to show the arrow for the path a unit will take - show the arrow while the player is hovering over the valid tiles to communicate more clearly that clicking on a unit allows you to give it a move order. I'd even argue that there's no need for forcing the players to click twice to finalize their orders but I'm guessing it's consciously done that way to make the experience of controlling the game with mouse and touch input as similar as possible.


    * Three or four short fights against an AI (as opposed to being scripted). Each fight is lead with premade decks and/or some units already present on the field. They are set up in a way that makes it impossible to win the match without demonstrating that you've learned the specific fight's lesson. All information is presented via tooltips, glowing UI elements and visual demonstrations.

    * First fight - basic mechanics:
    "Have an unlimited amount of close combat creature cards, maybe even an attack spell or two. Here's you enemy. Click on the glowing UI elements until you win!"

    * Second fight - ranged combat and terrain:
    "Here are some ranged units placed at different heights and with a different amount of movement options (some are placed on a single max height tile surrounded by minimum height tiles, others have two or three medium height tiles they can use as a staircase). Here are your enemies exclusively melee units. Put some holes into them!" (Optionally, we can introduce flying units and/or mounts here, it will be a good fit and add some variety.)

    * Third fight - undead units and how to take care of them:
    "Try and fight the enemy's undead units with your normal cards. Having trouble? Use the glowing anti-undead cards we've planted in your deck to destroy the enemy army! Done already? Well, what do you know! Now you've got some undead cards of your own! Give that other wizard a taste of his own medicine!"

    * Fourth fight - card burning, illusions and mega-spells:
    "Here's the thing, you won't have an unlimited deck in the actual game. Here's this really small hand filled with creatures with low casting chance. You've got a few additional, easier to cast spells in your tiny deck. Either burn some of your lowest chance cards and use the mana to boost whatever you've got left, or maybe try some illusions, maybe even try to win with your mega-spell!"

    I think this can work. We can add more figths, but not a lot more. And, of course, apologies if some of this matches what's already in the current tutorial - I honestly couldn't force myself to play through all of it.

    Other than that, I also think Rafi's tutorial is A Good Thing and I especially enjoy the idea about an encyclopedia for the various spells and equipment, accessible to the players at all times. The content already exists, it's just a matter of doing some UI work to make it easily browseable.

    Well, now.

    Who was I kidding with the "short" and "sensible" up there?
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Tue Aug 02, 2016 11:23 pm

  • So...Jim pointed me this way, so I hope I can be helpful.

    Julian Gollop wrote: - Did you play the tutorials at all? If so, how much? Did you play all the challenges?

    No. I was not aware the were a thing until someone pointed it out, and I don't backtrack on an LP unless there are serious issues. (Only one Civ-like series forced that so far.)

    Julian Gollop wrote: - Did you choose law or chaos mode?

    I selected Law as it was selected by default.
    Exceedingly happy I was introduced to Chaos mode and swapped to that in the second session.

    Julian Gollop wrote: - Specify some of the problems or things that confused you?

    There's a lot going on at the same time but I'd say...
    • I didn't realise your deck didn't reshuffle when it was done.
    • I didn't realise my Spider I was offered at the very start could die.
    • Had no clue how to attack with the Wizard, most especially when Mounted.
    • The Law-Chaos bar at the top escaped my notice until it was pointed out to me.
    • Major/Minor Staff Talismans slots look to similar. (I'd want something to appear when I hover over them to help explain them.)
    (And likely other things that are currently slipping me mind now.)

    Julian Gollop wrote: - Are they too easy/difficult? Is there a reasonable difficulty ramp?
    - Are the tutorials too long/short?

    Not applicable, as I didn't play the Tutorials.

    Julian Gollop wrote: - Any improvement suggestions in general?
    - Any suggestions for improving the interface? improving feedback?

    I'd be in support of some way to view descriptions of all the cards whenever you'd like and for the Undead thing to be made much clearer.
    And the Staff thing above so that it's easier to see why Talismans that look like they'd fit won't.
    When clicking on a foe and seeing their chances to attack you, I'd appreciate an arrow pointing from them to your Wizard, to make it clearer.

    Unlike some of the others, I don't think a game this complex could, or should, be squished into an overly short time. It would overwhelm people, in my view.
    I mainly held my own because of my knowledge of Magic the Gathering and about a half-dozen other similar card games.
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Tue Aug 02, 2016 11:36 pm

  • When clicking on a foe and seeing their chances to attack you, I'd appreciate an arrow pointing from them to your Wizard, to make it clearer.

    That's a very good idea. :)
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Thu Aug 04, 2016 12:56 am

  • - Did you play the tutorials at all? If so, how much? Did you play all the challenges?
    Yes, I played them all through twice in their original form. I haven't yet done the Law versions.

    - Did you choose law or chaos mode?
    Chaos mode before it was called chaos mode.

    - Specify some of the problems or things that confused you?
    I knew how to play the game well before I played the tutorials, so to a seasoned player they came across as discrete challenges instead of learning experiences. Because I feel like there's plenty of content here for seasoned players as well, I'd call this mode Wizard Academy instead of tutorials.

    - Are they too easy/difficult? Is there a reasonable difficulty ramp?
    Some were remarkably challenging in chaos mode due to RNG, but that's why I loved playing them. In fact, I'd love to see more of these challenges. They feel like what a single player Chaos Reborn mode should be like. For new players, I can see the RNG being a potential obstacle. I'd probably make the very first tutorial much simpler, perhaps with a couple of lions already in play in case you have a lot of bad luck with your casts. Perhaps start off with a dwarf which is even easier to cast. Failing your first spell, in the tutorial no less, might confuse new players.

    - Are the tutorials too long/short?
    I thought they were fine in terms of length, the early ones are quick and simple, the later ones (and challenges) more involved.

    - Any improvement suggestions in general?
    More challenges! I love these things, I'd like to see them expanded as more single player content.

    - Any suggestions for improving the interface? improving feedback?
    Make it clearer from the outset what the difference between Law and Chaos mode is. There is a description, but I'd like to see this become a much stronger part of a new player's introduction. Have them click on law mode and the background & music becomes more lawful, click on chaos mode and the background becomes more chaotic, subtle clues as to the nature of each mode. Also, make the tutorials much easier to find, or even put the player into the tutorial screen to start with (with the option to move to the main menu if they prefer) so it's not missed or overlooked. As mentioned above, I'd also rename them from tutorials to something more like Wizard Academy, implying that there are challenges which are optional but which teach you more advanced tactical thinking.
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Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:36 am

  • My only comment is that if a player realm is going to become a tutorial for the game (which I think is an excellent idea), I do think it should conform to the background lore.

    I'm more than happy to help with ensuring that is the case.
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