Threepwood wrote:without won/lost % you have no way of knowing weather you are improving your game or not, if it were removed i wouldent play 3 games a day, unlike now where i play 15 games.

a game like dota2 did not have stats at first and their forum were nothing but posts on when it would be implemented, and when it finaly did the playerbase went from 350.000 to 800.000

and i whant to bet you never have been flamed or harrased by a opponent cause of your % in this game, this os one of the friendliest playerbase i have ever played with and i have over 200 matches, people allways talk alot in a positive manner.

the lets hide your win loss percentage is seriously a losers opinion in my head, in school they dont hide your grade from you either,
im just saying if you cant handle looking at your loss in a game you seriously are going to have a hard life.

In Dota2 i can choose not to see my losses since its not on the main menu, in Dota2 the implementation of "rating" was actually the thing that broke the entire community into the horrid goo it is now.

Not saying this will ever have close to anywhere near Dota2's amount of players, but dont expect 100% of the community to be always clean of those types.

Also your comparison with school is wrong.. its not the "hiding of the grade" since that would mean i wanted to hide the ending screen of a match. If you want to compare i correctly .. its stopping the teachers from posting your same grades on the wall every single time you come into the classroom and they make it so that you cant see anything but it.

"that still did not make me feel like a loser, tho i had a horrid win/los ratio." .. thats the thing. YOU dont, I dont, but i know ALOT of people who would love this game, but dont feel like playing if they get their achievements based on lack of experience and gamemodes allowing only 1 out of 4 to win pressed onto their face every single time they look at a menu screen.

All im suggesting is a seperate profile/wizard screen where all these stats and more is shown instead of simply the main menu

on top of that all leading pc games have this feature lets start, counter strike, dota2, league of legends, starcraft, even in games like world of warcraft you have stats on everything, from jumps, to deaths, to mob kills, so dont come here and tell me this system doesent work.

At every single one of those games its hidden behind different pages or menu's

and you should first think of yourself as a looser when you give up

That's bullshit. You should see yourself as work in progress... NEVER as a loser. The moment you take the time to play this game you've already proven you want to improve .. a loser would never even try it or would be gone after 1 match anyway.


Again...not saying the stats shouldnt be recorded and shown anywhere, just saying that there are people who prefer fun over stats and thus rather not have them pressed in their face. Not everything has to be competetive style...
Wether it be on a profile page, a stats menu or a freaking chart you can print out with your fax... i really dont care, but i just made this suggestion because it might help one side while not giving a disadvantage to the others.
Even if just 1 person would keep playing because of a change like this would already be profit since its not interfering with anyone else.

I would only add that I would prefer Chaos Reborn not go the route of most modern games that hold players by the hand every step of the way and do anything (including compromising game play elements) to make players feel good about themselves.

ofcourse not, prefer the game as hard as possible. But no reason not to sweeten it up for the outside world.. soft outer layer (non-gameplay cosmetical stuff like menu's etc.) with a bitter core (the game itself) ;D

The best suggestion is having the option of setting up a friendly match with no ranking consequences. That way everyone gets to play the way they prefer. New players in particular are likely to want to play this way.

Timeraider wrote: a freaking chart you can print out with your fax...

I vote for a freaking chart you can print out with your fax! Now that would be cool

The thing with all stats is that depending on how you present it; you can show different things with the same data. So what if rather than win/loss being shown as a percentage, instead you show it as a line chart (or compacted bar) which represents monthly or weekly results for the past year? Or what if you show a pie chart representing form over the past 20 games? In either case you then have a visual representation of performance which the player feels that they can affect in the short term.

You could also present data on the turn that each game ends on, that way even a player that is losing can see that their games are lasting longer as they learn how to play the game.

You could even present data on the means of victory/death, which would help players to understand where their weaknesses are.

NoWorries wrote:A fair point. I do believe that the game should compile as many statistics as make sense and allow players to see them... if they wish. My point from my earlier post, however, was not that the game should not make a win/loss ratio available to people who wish to see it. And I'm not saying that win/loss ratios should not be important for discrete tournaments. Rather, win/loss ratios should not be a permanent record that is determinative for advancing in social rank, leveling up, or anything consequential.

Of course. I fully agree with this. Players who wish to see their win/loss ratios (e.g. me) should be able to see it, players who don't should be able to not see it. And a good way to achieve this would be to not show the stats in the initial screen, but have a separate stats screen that is optional. And sure, I also agree win/loss ratio shouldn't have any actual consequences in the game. Just information for the stat junkies I can attest that giving us stat junkies what we need can attract players that won't play so much otherwise, but that doesn't imply making stats important, or even visible at all, for the non-junkies.

By the way, if at some point ELO ratings are implemented in the game, this could fulfil the role you mention as a metric that emphasizes success over failure. Typically every regular player gradually improves their ELO, the best players improve it faster, others improve it slower, but no one needs to feel like a loser with ELO (well, maybe if you have a really abysmal ELO and see that everyone and their dog is better than you, but if you're at that point and are a sore loser, you're going to feel bad even without stats ). Also, with ELO ratings, you always have the option of playing against people with similar ELO and then your win rate will tend to be around 50%.

Ooooh. I just Googled "Elo Chaos Reborn" and found this:

Julian Gollop @ http://www.gollopgames.com/2012_11_01_archive.html wrote:The multiplayer features of the game are quite ambitious, but I think very important and central to the game experience. So here is a more detailed list of features for some discussion. Please add your own ideas, comments and suggestions.

• [...]
• Elo ratings - There will be a league system with player ratings based on the Elo system. League champions enter the hall of fame.
• [...]
• Stats - lots of them, for each player, for games, for spells. For example, kills, deaths, disbelieves, illusion %, wizard-on-wizard kills. Stats for games could include - most deadly spells, most popular maps, and so on.

So it looks like Julian and Al-Khwarizmi are on the same page, which seems great by me. I particularly like the idea of the Elo system as it allows someone to lose their first 1,000 games before figuring out the game and be able to climb their way to good standings from where their skill is now rather than where it was 1,000 games prior.

krayzkrok wrote:The best suggestion is having the option of setting up a friendly match with no ranking consequences. That way everyone gets to play the way they prefer.

+1

(krayzkrok has won at 80% of their posts)

really find the whole win/lose % stat utterly pointless and adds nothing to the game.

I personally don't care how many games i have won or lost and to me, in a game that very chance heavy, it is a stat that holds no weight as for example you could be playing extremely well but if the RNG decides to be a git, and we have all be subjected to its meanness at some point, then you can easily lose games you where in position to win. And of course that can go the other way as well. So it really isn't a reflection of any other than its a meaningless stat.

I'm not sure that the win/loss stat has much meaning in Chaos, but the first game that I've heard to hide it was Starcraft II. Let's just say that I don't like the attitude of the average SC2 player at all, so anything that makes me associate Chaos with it is... bad.
Just my 2 cents.