There's No Slight Like Line-of-Sight...

Discussion and questions about the latest version of Chaos Reborn. Not for bugs, but for comments about the game play.
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Van Helsing
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There's No Slight Like Line-of-Sight...

Post by Van Helsing » Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:29 pm

:?: I saw several posts recently describing surprise at not being able to hit a target with an action that requires line-of-sight. Usually, the comment mentions something like, "I moved into position, 3 squares away, and tried to throw a Magic Bolt. I guess a tree was somehow blocking the way and it wouldn't cast, even though there was a direct line of unoccupied hexes to the target."

I think Julian mentioned it was a minor bug and would sort it out. Jump to today, about 2 weeks or so later. Just finished a 4 player game in which an elf, a centaur, and wiz bow were all able to shoot between 2 adjacent minions (blocking the attackers sight) to hit wizards hiding behind. No direct line of sight was involved, height didn't matter (maybe it doesn't anyway), nor whether the 2 "blockers" were skewed at a diagonal to the attacker or perpendicular to them. I would guess that there was an edit to the program to deal with the initial line-of-sight issue, but now it seems like nothing blocks anything.

Didn't test out the narrow case of three in a direct line, where the 2 end units should each be blocked by the middle unit. But is that going to be the only case from now on? If so, blocking will be mostly useless, since an attacker can almost always step one hex to the side and then attack.

:arrow: "For we walk by faith, not by sight." (NewTestament)
But for me, twould rather thine arrow sting mine Goblin first! LOL

VH
Last edited by Van Helsing on Sun Apr 27, 2014 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
---------------
Monk: "Vampires?! Here, take these..."
"Rings of garlic...holy water...silver stake...crucifix..."
[outside, they hear 2 monks test-firing a Gatling gun]
Van Helsing: "Why can't I have one of those?"

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krayzkrok
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Re: There's No Slight Like Line-of-Sight...

Post by krayzkrok » Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:04 am

I'm not entirely sure what you mean here. Was the attacker in a straight line with the target with a creature directly between them (ie. shooting through their body) or was the attacker offset and shooting between the "gap" between two creatures, even though there's no direct empty hex between them?

The former would be a bug, that's not how LOS is supposed to work obviously. The latter, though, is normal. If there are two hexes occupied but you can still "see" through the gap between their bodies, then you have LOS (Julian described it as drawing a line between the attacker and the target's "head"). It means that two giants standing side-by-side are going to be hard to shoot past, but two goblins? Not so much.

But maybe that's not what you mean?

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Van Helsing
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Re: There's No Slight Like Line-of-Sight...

Post by Van Helsing » Sun Apr 27, 2014 4:22 pm

Just trying to figure out exactly what L.O.S. means. I've done a bit more experimenting, and its getting a little clearer. See image below:


Image

In the screenshot, my elf (having already moved), can now still shoot ANY of the opponents within a 4-range. The elf is the selected creature, so it is highlighting its valid targets. It doesn't seem to matter about the SIZE of the blocking creature (giant vs goblin), just the positioning. The elf-shot seems to magically weave its way past the elephants ear, under the giant's arm, and over the spider's leg to stake the heart of my enemy, the dreaded Dracula! (lol). The arrow can not be blocked by any 2 creatures that are perpendicular or at a slight diagonal to the arrow's flight.

Of course, a blocking creatlure EXACTLY in a straight line (regardless of its size) does block LOS between the units at either end of the line. But a simple side-step by the attacker would open up LOS again.

Originally, i was thinking that occupation of 2 adjacent hexes blocks any LOS between them, or like you thought, the size of the blockers made some difference. But its simply a straight-line block that works, so its not a very effective tactic for rushing across the board with a screening action from yr minions.

VH
---------------
Monk: "Vampires?! Here, take these..."
"Rings of garlic...holy water...silver stake...crucifix..."
[outside, they hear 2 monks test-firing a Gatling gun]
Van Helsing: "Why can't I have one of those?"

bode
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Re: There's No Slight Like Line-of-Sight...

Post by bode » Sun Apr 27, 2014 5:35 pm

I am not sure how LOS works. If it is determined by a straight line drawn eye to eye, then the elf has LOS on all the creatures (especially if you think 3D).

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Van Helsing
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Re: There's No Slight Like Line-of-Sight...

Post by Van Helsing » Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:30 pm

Good comment, bode. I see yr point. No matter how many creatures are between the attacker and their target, the arrow may fly between everything if the airspace is clear (regardless of whether the hexes are occupied). I'm not sure i like that method. And then how do we explain the image below?

Image

Another elf, this time Dracula's, has already moved, but can't nick Van Helsing with a shot! Do we have to get so detailed as in, "the first example the arrow goes under the giant's left arm (the one holding the boulder), and in the 2nd, the arrow is blocked by the (lower) giant's right arm, because the giant is turned 180 degrees." In which case, it would seem easier to shoot around an enemy giant than around yr own giant (which usually faces the enemy). Or, getting ridiculous now, should a sideways elephant make a better blocker than when u encounter it head-on, so be careful from which direction u attack? Seems like too much detail.

I'm thinking that these small game details aren't quite debugged yet, rather than being planned. It takes a ton of programming lines to get a game working well.

VH
Last edited by Van Helsing on Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
---------------
Monk: "Vampires?! Here, take these..."
"Rings of garlic...holy water...silver stake...crucifix..."
[outside, they hear 2 monks test-firing a Gatling gun]
Van Helsing: "Why can't I have one of those?"

bode
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Re: There's No Slight Like Line-of-Sight...

Post by bode » Sun Apr 27, 2014 7:00 pm

Nice that you have plenty of examples!

I am guessing that in this case, the arm of the giant or even the weapon of the goblin is in the way. I guess it should be an easy check for the game to determine LOS, not so easy for us.

Maybe this is not the best method. You could argue that you dont have to see the enemy's eye to take a shot at him. You could also argue that the projectile comes from the weapon and not the eye (let's hope for death stares in the full version!). Also the attacker can move somewhat its head and weapon.

I dont know what the current implementation is. An alternative I could think of would be different height and cross section areas for different enemies. For example, a giant would always fill the whole hex, a spider only the bottom part, a goblin just the center. So the heads would not really matter.

That being said, the current system does not displeases me. I guess it is a matter of what feels right, and not realism. If I could not shoot over the spider, it would not feel right for me.

Regards

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Re: There's No Slight Like Line-of-Sight...

Post by DigitalDuck » Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:23 pm

I'm guessing that, given the example from this thread...

Image
Image

... apparently not being line-of-sight, that it's just a case of the LOS system being really buggy at the moment.
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Re: There's No Slight Like Line-of-Sight...

Post by SlipperyJim » Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:26 pm

I believe Julian said this would be addressed - prototype and everything...

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Re: There's No Slight Like Line-of-Sight...

Post by krayzkrok » Mon Apr 28, 2014 1:25 am

Yes, the system that bode illustrates is the way that Julian has told us LOS works (but as Digital Duck points out, it's still buggy). I would much prefer this to having a generic "occupied hex block" as though the entire hex was filled with a hexagonal wall, else you'd definitely have players wondering why you can't shoot over a king cobra (if we ever get one!) or under a bat, or why a goblin blocks as well as a giant. It also add another tactical element (casting larger creatures to make better ranged attack blockers) which I wouldn't wish to see removed.

Of course, there are always going to be edge cases where things don't quite "look right", and I think Van Helsing raises a very valid point - creature facing definitely appears to affect LOS (the giant's arm example) and that might be frustrating because you have no control (presently) over creature facing. It also might mean that when the giant is eventually animated, you'd get temporary LOS when the giant reached up to scratch its head. Of course if this is the way it all eventually works then we'd learn to work within the nuances of the system, but we're at a pretty early stage so I'd be surprised if it doesn't get tweaked at some point.

In the original Chaos you could definitely shoot at an angle between creatures as well, but occasionally you'd see the arrow pass through a leg sticking out at an angle; I assumed there the "hit box" was a simple circle.

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Re: There's No Slight Like Line-of-Sight...

Post by PhilStormBorn » Thu May 01, 2014 4:53 pm

Edit, can't be bothered working out the img refs at the moment, will have to pop back later.

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