Flying and swooping

Discussion and questions about the latest version of Chaos Reborn. Not for bugs, but for comments about the game play.
morph
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Flying and swooping

Post by morph » Wed May 14, 2014 9:22 am

There was a tactical concern in the original game, where if a flying unit was sent to attack an enemy, if the attack was to succeed then the flying unit would be left in enemy territory. Was it worth killing the rat if it left your eagle exposed and on its own?

Thats all missing from this game. A flying creature must land next to an enemy to attack it. If the bat is to be added to the game, that would massively devalue it (Magic And Mayhem had just such a tactic, called Bat Bothering).

So if a flying creature attacks an enemy and the attack fails, can it be returned to its start? What about if the enemy is half the movement allowance or less then the attacker gets to retreat? Or if an attack fails, then another attack is made to see whether the attacker returns, or has to land next to the defender (Assuming they can)?

Currently if a unit has no empty hexes next to them, they can't be attacked by flying. That feels like its taking away the point of an eagles swoopiness.

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krayzkrok
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Re: Flying and swooping

Post by krayzkrok » Wed May 14, 2014 11:00 am

I wouldn't say that tactical risk is missing from this game, because you still have to fly your eagle into enemy territory to attack. In fact attacking is riskier now because in old Chaos if the attack failed your eagle stayed put. I do kinda miss the ability to attack from range without necessarily flying there first, and you're right that surrounding a target makes it immune from flying attacks which isn't ideal. It would be a good counter to the tangle vine block if you could still be attacked by flying creatures. Perhaps a flying attack (you can't call it a swoop, because that's used to indicate an attack from an elevated position now) could be possible with a reduced attack rating, on the basis that a long-range drive-by clawing is less accurate than hovering next to the target and going for the eyes (Boo).

People already tend to think of the eagle as a pain in the ass given its attack range, and with the height advantage it's quite a potent weapon, so giving it another ability (even though it's a Chaos original!) might be viewed with some contempt. :lol:

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Houchou
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Re: Flying and swooping

Post by Houchou » Wed May 14, 2014 6:15 pm

While I think krazykrok is quite right that flying attacks were less rather than more risky in the original..
morph wrote: Currently if a unit has no empty hexes next to them, they can't be attacked by flying. That feels like its taking away the point of an eagles swoopiness.
..this bit raises a very valid point. It does seem a bit too easy imo to wall your wizard off from attack in particular, as things stand:

-only at most 6 surrounding spaces to fill instead of 8
-ease of filling spaces with vines & blobs etc
-a wizard can move a creature out of a blockade, then immediately cast a new creature in its place, within a single turn. Assuming good chance of cast success, this means maintaining a blockade while further growing their army is almost risk-free

Blocking the path to your wizard was a mainstay of defence in the original, but attempting to camp out in a blockade was also balanced out with both the need for casting space, and the threat of flying units.

Bringing back a direct swoop-on-square/hex attack a la original chaos, without making ranged units too overpowered could be doable though. Maybe a setup like this could work:

1. Direct flying attack only possible against a hemmed-in target (to avoid 'abuse' if people generally think flyers are a little overpowered already), current attack mechanic applies otherwise
2. If direct attack succeeds, attacker rests on the attacked hex (a la original chaos)
3. If direct attack fails, attacker rests on the nearest empty hex from the attacked hex (in other words they're now parked next to an angry mob)

The only loophole I'm seeing is if the hemmed-in wiz / creature is surrounded by enemy units.. But if that's the case, aren't they due a kicking anyway? :)
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NoWorries
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Re: Flying and swooping

Post by NoWorries » Wed May 14, 2014 7:19 pm

IMHO, I generally love it when a wizard blockades themselves up. I bring in my troops at my leisure and then dispel the obstacle for the win. (This assumes, of course, that I have a dispel or two remaining.)
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RafiRomero
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Re: Flying and swooping

Post by RafiRomero » Wed May 14, 2014 8:24 pm

I feel like flying creatures should be able to attack you even if you are 2 levels up from them, I don't think they can at the moment.
With vine or wood, it is easy to wall yourself off from attack, but still drop creatures 2 levels down; I don't mind that so much, but it does seem silly that a dragon can't fly up and punch me if I'm doing it.
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PhilStormBorn
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Re: Flying and swooping

Post by PhilStormBorn » Wed May 14, 2014 10:02 pm

I think Houchou's suggestion would be a little obscure. I tend to agree with NoWorries, I have been forced into walling myself in and it's only ever saved me from immediate death, so gaining one place in a 4 player game.

Barriers are weak to magic. A blob thrown over the wall is a real problem. If part of the blockade is a creature then engaging the creature limits the options severely. It is good to discuss these things now but we shouldn't change fundamental mechanics until all the spells are here. Magic fire might rip through vines or just be dumped over them. There will be earthquake, that could wreak barriers and make new ones. Plus mystic wood and magic castle need to be taken into account to get the turtle balance right.

I really do like Rafi's point and that would help one case in a simple, elegant way. I'd like to see a flyer raise up vertically to do it. Along the same lines If a dragons LOS is blocked by an elf why doesn't it fly up to breathe over the elf? Technically Chaos Reborn law says a flyer has to land to attack. But then you could argue why doesn't a flyer take off when a dwarf lumbers over swing his hammer. I'm glad I don't decide these things.

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Houchou
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Re: Flying and swooping

Post by Houchou » Thu May 15, 2014 6:35 am

PhilStormBorn wrote:I think Houchou's suggestion would be a little obscure.
Fair point there
PhilStormBorn wrote:I really do like Rafi's point and that would help one case in a simple, elegant way.
I didn't even know it was the case that flyers were inhibited from attacking up 2 levels when adjacent.. Yep if so that could do with changing
PhilStormBorn wrote:It is good to discuss these things now but we shouldn't change fundamental mechanics until all the spells are here
Well it's all just fat-chewing after all :) in terms of ultimate decision-making that would be a logical approach, though I'd be happy to try out different stuff whenever myself
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krayzkrok
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Re: Flying and swooping

Post by krayzkrok » Fri May 16, 2014 12:34 am

Houchou wrote:I didn't even know it was the case that flyers were inhibited from attacking up 2 levels when adjacent.. Yep if so that could do with changing
This change alone would probably be sufficient: flyers can attack up or down 2 levels on adjacent tiles, plus they get their existing swoop bonus by attacking from an elevated position.

I also think giants should be able to attack up 2 levels on an adjacent tile (but not down 2 levels) on account of their extra height, but that's me. :)

Lawgasm
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Re: Flying and swooping

Post by Lawgasm » Fri May 16, 2014 12:58 am

I used to think the 'swoop' in the original was overpowered, but then I learnt to keep my units within range of each other so that if that pesky eagle did kill my king cobra, it would immediately have an ogre or something attacking it.

What really made eagle/manticore etc overpowered was their range. Now it only moves 4 squares, and there are many more mobile ground creatures, I don't think swoop would be too overpowered.

I mean sure the ability to ignore terrain is great on its own, but having to engage like any other ground creature kinda removes a tactical layer to the game.

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RafiRomero
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Re: Flying and swooping

Post by RafiRomero » Fri May 16, 2014 8:14 am

krayzkrok wrote:I also think giants should be able to attack up 2 levels on an adjacent tile (but not down 2 levels) on account of their extra height, but that's me. :)
Yeah, that'd be cool:)
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