6 Player Maps - Feedback and Team match setup suggestions

Discussion and questions about the latest version of Chaos Reborn. Not for bugs, but for comments about the game play.

  • I'm finding that with the 6 player maps that are available that there's a big difference between those that play well and those that don't


    A Dead Piece of Chaos - I've always been a fan of the maps with a hole in a middle and this is no exception, and the strategy that you adopt is different depending on where you start, but there is a way to play from each position. For team battles you're fine setting 123 vs 456, but setting 135 vs 246 leaves players 4 and 5 out on a limb. The usual picks for 2v2v2 12 v 34 v 56 or 14 v 25 v 36 are all good.

    Crazy Forest - Again this works well, lots of interesting features, no player has an advantage and everyone can potentially fight everyone. EDIT - For team games 123 vs 456 will work, and you've got other variations around the map 136 v 245 is pretty good in terms of setting a fair turn order. For 2v2v2 be careful however because 12v 34 v 56 leaves the 12 pair together whilst the 34 and 56 partners are scattered, a good order here is 13 v 25 v 46 if you want partners together, or 14 v 26 v 35 if you want partners to start opposite each other.

    Here and There - Another nice map, though the starting positions and turn order need looking at. Player 3 is able to perform a turn 1 bolt kill on player 5. And working clockwise around the map, the turn order is 1, 2, 6, 3, 5, 4 - This puts players 6 and 5 at a considerable disadvantage as they're sandwiched between 2 players who start before them. For a 3v3 team battle to work set 124 vs 356 or 126 vs 345 (neither of which is really obvious), if you don't want partners to start together go with 156 vs 234 (again not obvious, and you'll have the bolt problem). For 2v2v2 you can do it lots of ways but not 12 v 34 v 56, instead try 12 v 36 v 45 or even better 14 vs 26 vs 35 (solves the turn 1 bolt problem) instead, or 13 v 25 v 46 if you want team mates to not start together.

    EDITED setups for the above to give team setups that address the turn 1 bolt problem as this is not fixed as of 17/01/17

    Mana Piscine - Another polo map (with a hole in the middle) I love the use of the raised terrain around the mana flux. It kind of creates two obvious 1v1 battles at the start of the game (player 1 vs 2 and player 4 vs 6) whilst the remaining wizards have a chance to dig in. But it's not especially bad in that respect and the winner of those two duels is then in a position of strength. 3v3 Team battles that work:
    123 v 456
    136 v 245
    125 v 346
    156 v 234
    For 2v2v2
    12 v 45 v 36
    13 v 25 v 46
    14 v 26 v 35

    Over the Hollow Hill - This one I don't like so much, it is another polo map, but it's so stretched out that you end up with two 3FFA battles and rarely interact with the other 3 players until the end of the game. It's also 30 hexes from side to side, that's a long time spent chasing your opponent if they decide to flee from you. I'd like to see this compacted a bit if possible, and then also get rid of the hole, 'Over the Solid Hill' may play a lot better. There's also one hex on the map that is inaccessible, the one behind player 6's starting positions.
    3v3
    123 vs 456
    2v2v2
    It's not really suited but I'd go maybe 12 v 34 v 56 - Don't do 14 v 25 v 36 as players 2 and 5 get a big advantage in their starting positions.

    Peace upon Chaos - Man I really really hate this map, it's a 6 way Russian Standoff. No body is encouraged to move from their starting positions. An idea might be to fill in the holes between the separate spokes and potentially a midway landing point adding in between them.
    A team setup for 3 v 3 is 135 v 246 with team mates then staggered around the map. There's not really a good way to set up 3 v 3 with all team mates next to each other. You can do a variety of setups with 2 team mates for each team together and then the 3rd straight into a standoff.
    The map does work better for 2 v 2 v 2 however and has a few options:
    12 v 34 v 56
    16 v 23 v 45
    14 v 25 v 36


    Plainful Gathering - This is quite nice, whilst everyone is a bit split up into pairs again, there is the potential to get at each other.
    123 vs 456 will work but players 3 and 4 are up against it at the start.
    145 vs 236 is a nice alternative.
    12 v 34 v 56 is the best way to go for 2v2v2

    Ready for take off - Suffers from the same problem as Over the Hollow Hill, probably more so. Unless you're flying you're unlikely to experience anything other than two separate 3FFA battles. This does play okay if you setup a 3v3 game correctly however (1,2, and 3, vs 4, 5, and 6). Is there scope to change the maps that are available if it's a team match rather than a 6 way?
    123 v 456 is the only way for 3v3
    any variation of players from 123 paired with players from 456 will work for duels. Don't do a 12 v 34 v 56 though or you'll leave 34 in a really weak position.

    Techstatic - This is quite interesting, you're setup for three 1v1 battles, but that high ground around the map sets up nicely for some risk/reward tactics. I haven't played on this over much, but I have enjoyed the games that I did play on it.
    123 v 456 will work, but the map isn't really set up for this.
    135 v 246 works better and puts each member of each team with an immediate opponent.
    12 v 34 v 56 is good.
    14 v 25 v 36 is also good.
    Basically every setup that you'd expect to work does actually work for this map.

    The Space Between - The 3rd of the maps that splits the players into two 3FFA sub battles. Of the three, I think this is the one that does the best job of it. Especially when mana appears in the centre of the map, whilst players are kept separately here, there is a real incentive to push for the middle when that happen. The high ground also offers a means to go around and attack your opponent from a different angle players 3 and 2 for example can really blindside each other. This is a great map for 3v3 team battles too. I'd maybe give players 2, 3, 4, and 5 easier access to the high ground. The only downside is that again the length is a bit much at 30 hexes.
    123 v 456 is the only way to go for 3v3 here.
    2v2v2 isn't really what this map is about, you can try 12 v 34 v 56 but players 3 and 4 will be stranded. 16 v 24 v 35 is probably the best way to do it.


    Triple Double - Similar to Plainful Gathering. It's 3 duels and advertises itself as such. Works okay, might work better if the gaps between duellists were filled in. The turn order makes it a trick to setup team battles properly. Going for a 2v2v2 is fine, you just set 1 and 2, 3 and 4, and then 5 and 6. For a 3v3 to work you need imho to set 1, 4 and 5 vs 2, 3, and 6 and that's a bit counter intuitive. (Swapping the starting positions of players 3 and 4 would solve this).


    Overall, I think there's some good map variation, and it's nice that maps generate different kinds of battles. I think the weighting overall is a bit too much in the direction of players being split up into separate sub battles however rather than true 6 FFA melees, I'd like to see more maps that throw everyone together from the start. In particular really like to see Over the Hollow Hill and/or Ready for Take off be changed to that effect (or labelled as 3v3 maps).
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    Last edited by SpiteAndMalice on Thu Jan 26, 2017 7:49 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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  • One of the reasons I have found 6 player games are different from 4 player games is the tendency of the maps to funnel players into minibattles. I tend to prefer the more cyclic maps where each player gets two neighbors. A recurrent theme on the split up maps is staying put for 15-20 turns and only moving forward once your nearest enemies are eliminated. worto and I played one draw where we just didn't have enough time to kill each other from opposite sides of the map, so I have also suggested 30 turns as a default standard.
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  • Good observations!.. Regarding 6way maps, I've noticed that occasionally the 3v3 format can be ruined by poor starting positions...

    The last 3 or 4 3v3 games that I've played have all gone the same way.. due to team starting formations one team was able to isolate an enemy wizard in a 2v1 situation by turn 1/2 (sometimes even an immediate 3v1 situation!), followed by an inevitable early wizard kill, leaving the game literally a 3v2 before the game had even begun.. and 3v2 is pretty much a foregone conclusion..

    ..Map shape plays a big part in this, as does starting distances between wizards, but the main culprit is the actual starting formations within team formats....

    Of the possible team starting formations in 3v3, obviously the fairest one is this... http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.c ... 72881A60A/ ...this always seems to produce the best results and feels more like you're starting as a team ... Then we also have this... http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.c ... 9CA3E20FF/ ... Which can be ok sometimes, but can throw up some issues (map dependent), it's not ideal when turn one wings, turn one celeris or turn one +1 range can come in to play that early (proper team-like formations tend to negate this). Some matches using this formation are technically over by turn 2/3 (map dependent)...

    I think I've even seen variations like this... http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.c ... 3D03BF380/ ... but I haven't been able to recreate this kind of starting formation in testing so maybe it's not possible.. but if it is, it is very problematic.

    In fact if team formats did start more often in team formations (rather than scattered) you could actually place teammates closer (creating the illusion of more space), they wouldn't have to be spaced out like they were enemies... http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.c ... 65142EBA5/ ...

    ..This is something realms often gets more right than MP.. map sizes/map shapes/starting positions/starting distances/starting formations etc ..which all allow for a turn one spell fail without it creating a turn one emergency, turn one emergency's in MP should never be possible.

    MP maps tend to have more interesting features though.. however, 1v1 maps were recently downsized for the 'Duel' format and they are now quite uninteresting maps, the old 1v1 maps were the best designed maps in the game and showcased the game much better. No one is likely to complain about this change because it's probably led to quicker games which = a quicker turnover of forge crystals which takes precedence over the quality of matches.

    Obsilium wrote:A recurrent theme on the split up maps is staying put for 15-20 turns and only moving forward once your nearest enemies are eliminated.

    True, I've noticed this is actually a more general theme of 6way FFA's, it's something which might turn out to be slightly problematic for the format. In a recent 6way tournament (series of 12 6way matches) I got the approach completely wrong, I kind of approached it like any other FFA, like a 4way, I found that going for multiple wizard kills was actually detrimental, where as in a 4way if you bag 2 or 3 wizard kills you're in a great position (or have won already!)..

    ..In a 6way all you achieve by killing 2 or 3 wizards is clearing the field for your rivals leaving you with spent resources, you can lose the bulk of your army and spells just from getting involved, you can end up with not enough gas to take on the remaining wizards.

    Because it can cost you to get involved in a 6way FFA, I think prioritizing configs with high deck size combined with magic tree use and Exemplum Funus will become vital to have some consistency in the format. The problem is once everyone has twigged that it doesn't pay to get too involved in a 6way FFA everyone will just sit back to avoid trouble. This is the clearest example of the game being optimized for formats with 4 players or less.

    6way FFA is still a good format though and maybe it can still be an interesting format even if it evolves into being more like a marathon or war of attrition... I think 2v2v2 is my favorite, a 3way team format gives each team a combined spell deck of 40+ cards to go the distance (35+ turns), when the starting positions and turn orders are set up well 2v2v2's get the best out of the 6 player maps.

    Is Triple Double the cartwheel shaped map? I'm not sure that map works, always heavy heavy congestion.
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  • On cyclic maps, you don't have the same problem, because your neighbors moving in different directions gives you more space. On the congested maps, there isn't the same freedom, especially when the map forces you to move in a particular direction.
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  • it would be nice if there was some wikipage with screenshots; like mapname and screenshot
    i mean ive played probably all maps but if you give me a name i couldnt tell which was what
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  • The problem with the large ones is that you just can't zoom our far enough to get the whole map in.
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  • Bump - Whilst other development areas are on hold; is there any chance of sorting out some consistency for the turn order of 6 player maps please?
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    SPITE NIGHT 21! - Thursday 22 JUne at 20:00 GMT on the Chaos Reborn discord channel.

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