Duel AI

Discussion and questions about the latest version of Chaos Reborn. Not for bugs, but for comments about the game play.
Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:56 am

  • Please can something be put in the game to explain the Ai Cheat.

    If i had gold every time i had to explain to a new player about the Ai mana boost cheat i would be, well, richer than I already am.

    It is not good for the game when a new player starts saying in global chat that they feel a player is cheating as they are doing crazy things, in the case 2 vampire megas, manitcore and a hellhound without collecting any sprites.

    There needs to be an explanation about the Ai cheat as well as a graphical thing telling the player they are playing Ai.

    Easier option would be of course, just get rid of the cheat :)
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    gary
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Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:36 pm

  • Good idea, maybe an info pop-up at the start of every duel level one match which explains the escalating mana thing (should you encounter an AI wizard throughout a streak).

    ..and a clearer indicator when an AI wizard steps in (as a warning that the escalating mana thing is in effect.. and also to prevent players chatting to an AI).

    (Related topic - viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4978&start=10)
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    Mazy
     
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Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:38 pm

  • I wondered about this, and the possibility of reworking the escalating AI handicap altogether.
    The stats that are added by talisman buffs indicate that they are pretty useful in determining difficulty.

    I wonder if upping random stats might be a good alternative to mana boosting?

    I'll call this variable A as their is other ideas for others that can be boosted alongside it.
    So variable A: stat boost
    A-a:Attack
    A-b:Defense
    A-c:Magic Attack
    A-d:Spell boosting
    A-e:Mega spell cost
    and so on....following stats given by equipment.

    variable B: Creatures
    Just follow the algorithm for creatures in realms

    variable C: Mana gained per turn
    As opposed to just getting a lump of mana at the beginning, have it distributed throughout the match.

    You have these 3 variables side by side, with an algorithm that randomly distributes the handicap points per level. Perhaps this could make for a more robust system? Sometimes getting a wizard that is more buffed in stats, one that is more buffed with creatures, a mixture of all 3?

    Otherwise, another reason to take a look into this is that you could possibly rework how realm citadels function. Right now all they really do is pump an AI with reinforcements. But having 8 reinforcements to indicate the ultimate challenge isn't neccesarilly ideal *due to how long it takes to power through these matches*

    What if citadels could make use of this system as well? upgrading the AI, making them more challenging in more varied ways?

    Only thing here is that you'd probably have to put a cap on how many reinforcements a wizard lord can get, though if it's balanced enough this shouldn't be a problem. for example: a wizard with 4 reinforcements, extra mana per turn and a boost to the defense staff (with an armory staff) could be just as tricky as one of the wizards now with 8 reinforcements.

    This could still be worth looking into.
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Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:03 pm

  • I can at least make this information more readily available; it is a little more awkward to add new popup screens while we're in the middle of localization, although I agree this might be better in the long run.
    AiDuelBoost.PNG
    AiDuelBoost.PNG (59.3 KiB) Viewed 78 times

    AiManaForTalismanActivation.png
    AiManaForTalismanActivation.png (131.72 KiB) Viewed 78 times
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    CGR
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Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:28 pm

  • I think I'd rather see the duel AI having reinforcements at the start of the game rather than extra mana. Being able to physically see the advantage which is given to the AI in that way feels fairer somehow.
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Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:54 pm

  • SpiteAndMalice wrote:I think I'd rather see the duel AI having reinforcements at the start of the game rather than extra mana. Being able to physically see the advantage which is given to the AI in that way feels fairer somehow.



    +1 on that. I'm 100% for the idea of escalating difficulty, in fact, I wish there was the capability to dial in the level you want to start at and bypass some of the easier low-reward levels. But, after a certain level it ends up coming down to what mega the AI has the capability of casting every single turn. I've got some screenshots of me goingup against a dozen hydras. The result of which is that it ends up being less than escalating and gameplay loses some of it's subtler nuances.
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Mon Apr 24, 2017 4:35 pm

  • At what level about do you notice the AI boost passing that reasonable point?

    Or at about what level would you consider cutting off the bonus? i know when fighting players, they could only be so good in comparison to an AI with this and this handicap given to it.

    Otherwise, figuring out at what point the mana buffs trivialize the mana management mechanics for the AI might be a good place to work in alternative buffs.

    Don't want to seem naggy, just excited! xD
    anjovi
     
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Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:05 pm

  • I generally use duel to test new equip and grind crystals, so normally play law duel, i think i'm around 2500 games :0

    Obviously, in chaos mode, the mana advantage curve to silly gameplay is a lot sharper. But regarding law: I played a level 1 game yesterday and the AI used a mega on the 2nd turn (Bolt), which was a surprise, but normally speaking once I pass level 10 things can start getting weird with consecutive mega casts towards the mid teens (I'd say a cutoff could be level 15). Past level 20 it's all a crapshoot. AI can cast mega whenever it pleases and it comes down to what kind of staff they have. Additionally, if they are equipped with the 'free cast of adjacent creature' talisman, they will hit that every turn so, you are good and truly screwed.

    It's not the difficulty that is the issue, really. After that many levels things should be hard. It's the randomness/mystery of it and the fact that it renders the entire gameplay mechanism related to mana and bluffing etc rather useless. And depending on the AI's staff, there can be crazy incremental leaps from one level to the next.

    Here's a funny shot of spider infestation, this is after killing half as many :)
    1Screen-Shot-2017-04-14-at-9.09.45-AM.png


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    larksleep
     
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Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:59 pm

  • :shock: Arachnophobia.. I agree that the outcome really does start to depend on which mega-spell the AI gets beyond a certain duel lvl (around duel lvl 15-25 the mana really ramps up)..

    ..I've seen the AI immediately start spamming dragons at around lvl 16, it may have even been at a lower lvl than that, either way it's GG on the reworked tiny 1v1 maps.. I've seen it spam herds of buffed elephants at around lvl 18...

    ..The funniest one was a lvl 17 AI with stormriders, on duel maps they can have you in check-mate by turn 2 with total map coverage (the one I faced cast stormriders on turn 1, 2 & 3, and had 2 or 3 talismans pre-activated).

    The 1v1 map reworks, which don't suit chaos mode or competitive/tactical matches in general, would probably mean that reinforcements wouldn't work in duel as well as they do in realms, realm maps are appropriately sized and designed.
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    Mazy
     
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Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:17 am

  • So in my mind, what i'm thinking would work is:
    - Cut off AI mana boost at about level 15
    -Find another easy to impliment buff for the AI that mitigates the turn by turn megaspell cast and implement that aside the mana boost.

    Creature reinforcements might not work as it clashes with the level design and the 'duel' theme.

    I wonder if buffing staff/armor stats could be a handicap that acts as a buffer for the mana spam.

    maybe having an upgrade tree that looks like this:
    level 1- no buff
    level 2 -stat boost +10% & mana gained per turn +10%
    level 3 -stat boost +20% & mana gained per turn +20%
    level 4 -stat boost +30% & mana gained per turn +30%
    level 5 -stat boost +40% & mana gained per turn +40%
    level 6 -stat boost +50% & mana gained per turn +50%
    level 7 -stat boost +60% & mana gained per turn +60%
    level 8 -stat boost +70% & mana gained per turn +70%
    and so on......

    maybe dial the buffs to 8% each instead of 10 and have the level 15 buffs equal 120%

    So this could make 1 wizard eventually equal the strength of a little more then 2 wizards.

    but which stats would be problematic with this layout?
    you've got:
    Armor:
    attack (1 point = 10 stats)
    defense (1 point = 10 stats)
    agility (1 point = ?, though seems to be in relation to talisman slot value)
    magic power (1 point = 10 stats)
    deck size (1 point = 1 card)

    Staff:
    hand size (1 point = 1 card)
    casting boost (1 point = 2 stats)
    megaspell cost (1 point = -2 cost)

    Other variables:
    -What the value of talisman slots are (they seem to be in relation to the agility since the agility is locked and they're the only other factor in armor)
    -What the value of megaspells are (as they seem to vary the base value of the megaspell cost stat)

    Otherwise, as a base stat wizard (no buff) you have about 18 points to plunk into buffing the wizard (for the staff and armor, 9 each) So, I'm assuming there already is some sort of RNG system for making wizards as you've got procederally generated wizards in realms (and duels assuredly) Say now that you have 9 + 5% = 9.45.....kk this were 10% falls apart.

    say if you altered the proposition to look like:
    level 1 = 1+ stat (each piece of gear) & 10%+ mana per turn
    level 2 = 2+ stat & 20%+ mana per turn
    level 3 = 3+ stat & 30%+ mana per turn
    level 4 = 4+ stat & 40%+ mana per turn
    ....
    level 9 = 9+ stat & 90%+ mana per turn
    and here's were you have about double the stats of the wizard...from here you could either continue this way or change things up to only incorporate mana buffs
    level 10 = 9+ stat & 100%+mana per turn
    level 11 = 10+ stat & 110%+ mana per turn

    And from there you can cut it off and have a crazy tough AI opponent that scales up reasonably well, though isn't coming at you with 30 spiders....

    The concerns would be: not having enough of an impact to warrant it as an AI buff or being too OP as an AI buff.
    Though some quick tests might help discern whether or not this is could be a good alternative to just buffing the mana straight

    Ideally, you'd want enough room for the AI to play with illusion mechanics...maybe capping the mana boost at 200% of mana per turn? (or 28 mana per turn) or something a bit higher, and leaving the rest of the buff to stat boosts.

    Just some example stats above...I could see them being easily tweaked by someone with more insight into the game then me.

    I see alot of potential for fun in duel mode vs AI, something like this might be small enough to be tweaked in.
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