how to promote attacking in chaos mode

Discussion and questions about the latest version of Chaos Reborn. Not for bugs, but for comments about the game play.

  • i would like to start a discussion about making chaos mode a bit more favorable for attacking
    we can argue at length if it needs more attacking or not but that is rather not what i would like to discuss

    so the question is:

    assuming that attacking in general needs a little bit of love, what would be acceptable as a measure to achieve this effect?

    My personal suggestion would be: make magic bolt always a 100% kill on a wizard (in chaos mode not in law)
    Doing this will help attacking greatly as it will make an attack more predictable.

    Another suggestion i will make is to : increase or remove the double chance some spells (like subversion or magic attack) have.
    Especially in classic mode these spells are very bland due to the fact that you only have 100 mp so even if u manage to get a 75% subversion out it will do 40-50% chance on hit.Imo a 100% chance to cast and maybe a slightly lower chance to hit would make that spell more viable, since you have to move into 3-range to cast the spell which makes it a triple risk. Again this makes it using it defensively more viable than offensively, since casting it and then move away (as opposed to moving into range and then cast it) is way less risky. Another option could be to make magic power 120 instead of 100 in classic mode making magic attacks more effective.

    A third (but least favorite) thing i could mention is making defensive spells like trees and (icarus)towers harder to cast
    Atm it seems a little bit too easy to sit in some forest and wait till the last 3 turns before attacking
    Sure its a viable strategy but its is not very fun and it will push attacking style players away from this game, which is something i have observed.

    anyway i am just making some suggestions, with 100% bolt being my favorite thing to try out, but it would be nice to see some other suggestions
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    Stitchy
     
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  • Disagree in the Magic Bolt's case, 100% of anything is out of the concept IMO. To hit fail is the pinnacle of risk management/PRNG system in this game, its most basic gambit.
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  • blobka wrote:Disagree in the Magic Bolt's case, 100% of anything is out of the concept IMO. To hit fail is the pinnacle of risk management/PRNG system in this game, its most basic gambit.


    +1

    Law mode has the gameplay which is based on certainty and as such it suits the more attack minded players.

    Blobka is hitting the nail on the head re; Chaos mode is based around risk management there should absolutely not be a guarenteed way to make a kill.

    In general I think that Chaos mode has good balance between attacking and defensive play. (The new duel maps aside, which for me just make the game about rush tactics.)

    I would say already that magic attacks are too strong though, and they do make some early eagle nuking a bit too easy.

    Dragons in particular also have a bit too low agility imho. You can just move units next to them and they'll usually be held in place.

    And I think I'd also like to see a bit more range on Manticores, whilst possibly less for the paralysing attack of hellhounds. (Or flip the casting chance of hellhounds and vampires).

    You could also, especially now that custom games are being opened up for demi gods to tinker with, maybe try having a map option to turn off undead slayer. Watching a skeleton run away from a wizard is not the purpose for which I think skeletons were originally invented.
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  • blobka wrote:To hit fail is the pinnacle of risk management/PRNG system in this game, its most basic gambit.


    RNG management for me is just another word for defensive play
    It is theoretically possible to make attacking so impossible through RNG that the game comes to a halt and can not be called a "game" anymore, in that sense there are higher things than just RNG.

    blobka wrote:Disagree in the Magic Bolt's case, 100% of anything is out of the concept IMO


    everyone already assumes a bolt will kill them anyway but when it doesnt it usually stupifies people and makes the game look senseless to both victim and caster. so on the contrary a 100% hit would only be right into the concept of bolt

    SpiteAndMalice wrote:Law mode has the gameplay which is based on certainty and as such it suits the more attack minded players.


    Just for the record this topic isnt about law mode but saying "if u got a problem with chaos mode just go to law mode" to me feels not right,it is just as much my game as anyone elses (dont worry i dont take it personal)
    Understand that im here to make the (chaos) game better

    SpiteAndMalice wrote:I would say already that magic attacks are too strong though, and they do make some early eagle nuking a bit too easy.


    i would prefer not making anything stronger just the double chance (cast% and hit%) makes it in the subversion case another defensive spell like i tried to demonstrate.And in the magic attacks case it is a comfortable spell to cast from behind your defensive wall, when u can afford to fail it, but it is a desperate option when behind or under pressure.

    SpiteAndMalice wrote:Dragons in particular also have a bit too low agility imho. You can just move units next to them and they'll usually be held in place.


    SpiteAndMalice wrote:And I think I'd also like to see a bit more range on Manticores, whilst possibly less for the paralysing attack of hellhounds. (Or flip the casting chance of hellhounds and vampires).

    You could also, especially now that custom games are being opened up for demi gods to tinker with, maybe try having a map option to turn off undead slayer. Watching a skeleton run away from a wizard is not the purpose for which I think skeletons were originally invented.


    not sure if this would benefit attacking or defending so i dont know
    Last edited by Stitchy on Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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  • regarding the "double chance" spells like subversion and the magic attacks, I think it's mostly important for the neutral spells: subversion and paralyze. Because any chaos or law spell may be made 100% cast by alignment shifting.

    I would prefer that subversion and paralyze (and their mega spell versions) were 100% cast like magic bolt, to help players choose the risk of the move they are about to make. But I'm not sure if that is directly related to attacking or defending play-styles.
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    clef
     
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  • making the attack spells 1 roll is interesting, i like the added idea of having neutral attacks 100% casts. and just keeping law and chaos attacks thematically based on the law/chaos shifting.

    can't really add anything, though 1+ as somehting worth considering.
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  • Stitchy wrote:
    blobka wrote:Disagree in the Magic Bolt's case, 100% of anything is out of the concept IMO


    everyone already assumes a bolt will kill them anyway but when it doesnt it usually stupifies people and makes the game look senseless to both victim and caster. so on the contrary a 100% hit would only be right into the concept of bolt


    Bolt works 71% of the time - It's clearly marked as working 71% of the time, if a player wrongly assumes that a bolt will make a kill any amount other than 71% of the time then the fault is with that player, not with the rng.


    Stitchy wrote:
    SpiteAndMalice wrote:Law mode has the gameplay which is based on certainty and as such it suits the more attack minded players.


    Just for the record this topic isnt about law mode but saying "if u got a problem with chaos mode just go to law mode" to me feels not right,it is just as much my game as anyone elses (dont worry i dont take it personal)
    Understand that im here to make the (chaos) game better


    Where exactly did I say go to Law mode?

    Your advocating that Chaos Mode should work more like how Law Mode works - You've got Law Mode that gives certainty already, and that suits people who enjoy attacking play. Chaos Mode is imho well balanced between defensive and attacking game play, it doesn't need to be made more attacking in the first place, to which on that basis the whole assumption that you're asking people to make as the basis of this thread is wrong. Making Chaos Mode more attacking would leave players who enjoy a game where you have the option to defend as well as attack without any game mode that would suit them.... because Law Mode is already attack focused.


    Stitchy wrote:Understand that im here to make the (chaos) game better


    What makes Chaos Mode better or worse in regards to how attacking or defensive it is is of subjective opinion. Making Chaos Mode more attacking as a whole only makes it 'better' for players who like to play an attack focused game, it doesn't make it 'better' for players who enjoy being able to play with a more balanced play style.
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  • Stitchy wrote:Another suggestion i will make is to : increase or remove the double chance some spells (like subversion or magic attack) have.
    Especially in classic mode these spells are very bland due to the fact that you only have 100 mp so even if u manage to get a 75% subversion out it will do 40-50% chance on hit.Imo a 100% chance to cast and maybe a slightly lower chance to hit would make that spell more viable, since you have to move into 3-range to cast the spell which makes it a triple risk. Again this makes it using it defensively more viable than offensively, since casting it and then move away (as opposed to moving into range and then cast it) is way less risky.


    Almost any cast in the game is less risky if you move away after casting, rather than moving towards something.

    The same goes for ranged attacks - Should we therefore say that Elves and Dragons are more defensively viable?
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  • Personally I think the game is in a really good balance state.

    Attacking is its own reward as it allows for control of area and pace, illusions can also be used to be aggressive.

    No to 100% bolts.

    I also think mag att are very well balanced, if u want to kill an eagle on turn 3 with decree you can gladly have that kill in my book, but you will not have that spell when a hellhound or giant is bearing down on u in turn 12.

    Would really like a larger map pool variety, maybe could be a choice to tick large map, medium small or any configuration when looking for a game.
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  • SpiteAndMalice wrote:Bolt works 71% of the time - It's clearly marked as working 71% of the time, if a player wrongly assumes that a bolt will make a kill any amount other than 71% of the time then the fault is with that player, not with the rng.


    this is a fallacy
    we can play 100 times and it can fail 100 times, if we play indefinitely it will succeed 71% but we are never playing indefinite times.I said people assume bolt will hit because that is the core gameplay this game evolves around.

    SpiteAndMalice wrote:Where exactly did I say go to Law mode?


    you said if u want attacking style people should play law mode, implicitly agreeing chaos mode is more defensive
    It is the standard answer you have for any criticism on chaos mode,or at least that is my perception.

    SpiteAndMalice wrote:Your advocating that Chaos Mode should work more like how Law Mode works


    I am not advocating that chaos mode should work like law mode does that is just your perception.
    All i was asking for was some suggestions or some form of debate about small changes that might be agreeable to everyone including you.

    SpiteAndMalice wrote:What makes Chaos Mode better or worse in regards to how attacking or defensive it is is of subjective opinion. Making Chaos Mode more attacking as a whole only makes it 'better' for players who like to play an attack focused game, it doesn't make it 'better' for players who enjoy being able to play with a more balanced play style.


    I do not claim that my particular suggestions or opinions make the game better, im just saying that is what im trying to achieve in conjunction with the opinion of others.
    What if what you call balanced its just your opinion and is in fact defense biased, at least some open mind might be helpful. You seem not even ready to consider any options , even without ever seeing them in action, just because you do not see a problem.

    SpiteAndMalice wrote:Almost any cast in the game is less risky if you move away after casting, rather than moving towards something.

    The same goes for ranged attacks - Should we therefore say that Elves and Dragons are more defensively viable?


    I really dont want to argue about this because it smothers any innovative suggestions that might actually surprise even you.
    What you refuse to see or just accept as part of the game is the amount of draws and turtling that this game produces.
    You can think this is fun but im sure im not the only one who thinks it is something to be minimalized and even if i was the only one I would still be entitled to addres this as problematic.

    clef wrote:regarding the "double chance" spells like subversion and the magic attacks, I think it's mostly important for the neutral spells: subversion and paralyze. Because any chaos or law spell may be made 100% cast by alignment shifting.

    I would prefer that subversion and paralyze (and their mega spell versions) were 100% cast like magic bolt, to help players choose the risk of the move they are about to make.


    i like this argument, its put better than i managed to do
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