Law Mode as the first mode new players see

Discussion and questions about the latest version of Chaos Reborn. Not for bugs, but for comments about the game play.
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ustolemytiger
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Re: Law Mode as the first mode new players see

Post by ustolemytiger » Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:41 pm

Prof Mazy is right, a good load of new players came in over the last month as far as I can see and they are almost all playing law mode!

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Stitchy
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Re: Law Mode as the first mode new players see

Post by Stitchy » Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:54 pm

ok so

what if newcomers have to choose and (in majority) still choose law?


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Stitchy
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Re: Law Mode as the first mode new players see

Post by Stitchy » Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:46 pm

ofc blame the victim :P

wasnt the customer always right or something

Anyway i wish for only 1 mode but that means compromise
Every time i tried to suggest something (like a 100% hit chance magic bolt) there is a very conservative movement that just will not move from the position that there can never be enough RNG. I am afraid this is the wrong stance if u want to reach a large audience.
Even hardcore chaos players admit they prefer law mode in realms and i do not have numbers but i suspect that singleplayer is the biggest group of players, so there you go.

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Re: Law Mode as the first mode new players see

Post by SpiteAndMalice » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:01 pm

Stitchy wrote:ofc blame the victim :P

wasnt the customer always right or something
Well the original customers who played the game through beta were asked a good few times about whether or not they wanted HPs in the game and repeatedly fedback that they didn't.

At the same time the game was receiving negative feedback on steam from people who had usually played no more than a couple of hours of the game and so HPs were introduced anyway via Law mode,

I think this in itself would have been fine, not overly popular but accepted, however the devs decided to try to funnel new players into that game mode.... and a large slice of that original customer base first complained, and then many of them walked away from the game as a result.

New customers who like HPs did appear, but the Law mode side of the game offers less depth that Chaos mode, so they often don't stick around in the long run.

The result is that player numbers have remained pretty much where they are, the only thing that Law mode has achieved is to divide those players into two camps.

So yeah, I guess the customer is always right.
Stitchy wrote: Anyway i wish for only 1 mode but that means compromise
Every time i tried to suggest something (like a 100% hit chance magic bolt) there is a very conservative movement that just will not move from the position that there can never be enough RNG. I am afraid this is the wrong stance if u want to reach a large audience.
When Chaos mode is RNG based, and Law mode is based around certainty; how is asking for something to be 100% a position of compromise?

The suggestion that you've made is essentially for bolt in Chaos mode to be made certain like bolt in law mode, it'd be insta kill - that's why it's not been supported by players who prefer RNG.

Stitchy wrote: Even hardcore chaos players admit they prefer law mode in realms and i do not have numbers but i suspect that singleplayer is the biggest group of players, so there you go.
Similarly a lot of players who start off in Law Mode come to realise that in the long term that Chaos mode is the more enjoyable way of playing the game.. Full stop. ;-)
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Re: Law Mode as the first mode new players see

Post by SpiteAndMalice » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:04 pm

Mazy wrote:Law mode is still framed as the default mode for SP.

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 0E5A89E73/

(and 'allow invaders' is on by default to)

I'd feed this back as a bug - I could be wrong, but I believe that the game is meant to be explaining both modes and asking new players to then choose between them.
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Re: Law Mode as the first mode new players see

Post by Stitchy » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:43 am

In the end it is all water under the bridge, but im a bit tired of this blaming of players. Chaos reborn failed to unify its own concept and that is a design issue. It wants to move on extreme edges and did not look for an acceptable middle, which i think is possible.

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ustolemytiger
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Re: Law Mode as the first mode new players see

Post by ustolemytiger » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:25 am

Law mode is just a far inferior game, even if it was fully balanced it just creates a static battlefield of number crunching.

I have enjoyed many Law mode games and liked the new strategies that I have had to deploy, but in an awful lot of law mode games I know who is going to win on the first turn unless really stupid mistakes are made.

I obviously can't talk for every gamer in the world but think that the first impression of the game should be the best iteration to keep others playing as long as I have and not being turned off because of the flaws of law mode.

Either way I am still a believer that Chaos will rule the world!!!

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Stitchy
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Re: Law Mode as the first mode new players see

Post by Stitchy » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:10 pm

ustolemytiger wrote:Law mode is just a far inferior game, even if it was fully balanced it just creates a static battlefield of number crunching.
it is inferior because there are a lot of things missing (critical strikes, healing etc)
Law mode actually has a LOT of rng; map position, deck generation, card draw, web, paralyse and more.
ustolemytiger wrote:I have enjoyed many Law mode games and liked the new strategies that I have had to deploy, but in an awful lot of law mode games I know who is going to win on the first turn unless really stupid mistakes are made.
I have the same in chaos games, when i get dwarf mega vs an all undead deck that casts chaos shift at turn 1 and i have no undead counters and neither do i enjoy it when my rat kills 2 hydras which makes a mockery of any tactic so..


The whole point is that chaos mode does not have to be all chaos to be truly chaos, just as law does not have to be all predictable to be law. And if u merge these two statements then you will see that a unified chaos game, which has the best of both worlds, is actually possible. (and yes that means even without hitpoints or static number crunching but it also means without an insane rng that makes every game a coin toss).
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Re: Law Mode as the first mode new players see

Post by worto03 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:54 pm

This does feel like a bit of a pointless argument now but for my 2 pence....

I'd be fine with law mode if it was a different game - I'd probably even buy it if it was finished properly but it's missing too much.

It needs different spells, healing, bigger maps with exploring, more like a Lords of Chaos remake. It's not even balanced properly and can't ever easily be balanced without messing up chaos mode.

Maybe there is a golden middle ground we could reunite into one game but I can't see it. As soon as you take away the one hit kill based on % and replace it with predictable hit points you have a completely different type of game.

They could both be good games though with enough players.

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