agreeing to play ranked league live

Discussion and questions about the latest version of Chaos Reborn. Not for bugs, but for comments about the game play.
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NoWorries
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Re: agreeing to play ranked league live

Post by NoWorries » Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:19 pm

For now, I think there can only be agreement to disagree. However, I'm happy to revisit this issue when we have 10 or more players in the at least 2 or 3 of the most populate ladders at the end of a month or two.
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Re: agreeing to play ranked league live

Post by SpiteAndMalice » Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:02 am

It's not really a league or a ladder as they're usually identified.

A ladder doesn't have an end point, it runs perpetually and it normally only allows the lower ranked player to challenge a higher ranked player. ELO is designed originally to be used as a long term measure of ranking, not a monthly one.

In a league you'll have a start and end point (a season) and matches are predetermined with everyone playing each other a set number of times.

The Chaos ranked league is a hybrid of both, it's go an end point like a league usually would have, you can play people as often as you like, with no restriction on who can challenge each other, and no restriction on how often.
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Re: agreeing to play ranked league live

Post by SpiteAndMalice » Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:08 am

Regards splitting live and asynch; yes you ideally should do. The same goes for splitting 2/3/4 player matches (and adding in 5 and 6)

But that should only happen if/when the playerbase grows and/or the duration of the competitions is lengthened so that a larger group of players reaches archmage. Ideally with a ladder system, there shouldn't be any kind of end point at all, it should be a long term measure.
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Re: agreeing to play ranked league live

Post by SpiteAndMalice » Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:17 am

Stitchy wrote:Fifth would be that live play is much more suited for arranged types of matchplay like cups and (real) leagues which are arranged by definition and live play requires arranging since both (or all players) need to be present at a certain time.
From what I've experienced in trying to run competitions it's actually asynch which works a hell of a lot better for arranging league fixtures. Playing asynch takes away the necessity for all players to be present at a certain time. All fixtures could be auto generated in game at the start of the season and matches can be available for people to take part in as soon as they next log in.

Cups work live, but only on a small scale and when entrants to the cup have to be present at the start of the cup and when we've tried to run all fixtures on the same night (In 21 Spite Nights, I don't we've had to give a single walk over).

But every time we've tried pre arrange live games for leagues and cups (with a longer time period) we have a logistical nightmare in tying to get all players present at the same time. Even asycnh we get players signing up to take part and then finding that life takes over and they're unable to complete their fixtures, but trying to arrange it live is far far worse. Whether it's a live league or a live ladder, you've got no chance of getting through it without giving walkover after walkover.
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Re: agreeing to play ranked league live

Post by SpiteAndMalice » Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:28 am

Stitchy wrote: Second point is : you seem to treat it as friendly play, it is not.It is ranked play. Anyone can play friendly, in ranked however there is some eligibility (a level 80 doesnt play a level 1 ok this is messed up because of player numbers but the principle still holds).
As an aside, the player levels aren't a good measure in the first place - They only show how much a given person has played certainly areas of the game (those that give XP specifically), it's not an indication of how skilled that player might be in relation to any other.

I'm not sure if I remember this right, but is the matchmaker setup to pure match players on level, or does it use that month's ELO rating? I thought that ELO was a factor.
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Re: agreeing to play ranked league live

Post by Stitchy » Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:19 pm

SpiteAndMalice wrote: Stitchy wrote:
Fifth would be that live play is much more suited for arranged types of matchplay like cups and (real) leagues which are arranged by definition and live play requires arranging since both (or all players) need to be present at a certain time.


From what I've experienced in trying to run competitions it's actually asynch which works a hell of a lot better for arranging league fixtures. Playing asynch takes away the necessity for all players to be present at a certain time. All fixtures could be auto generated in game at the start of the season and matches can be available for people to take part in as soon as they next log in.
i agree with this point but what i said was kinda the opposite of how u interpret it:
The nature of live play is that of being arranged, since both players have to be present and leagues are also in essence arranged (as opposed by ladder games which are generated more ad hoc based on current standings) it is only in this sense that live and league are similar.I agree that in Chaos Reborn even arranged games are easier to do in async
SpiteAndMalice wrote:A ladder doesn't have an end point, it runs perpetually and it normally only allows the lower ranked player to challenge a higher ranked player. ELO is designed originally to be used as a long term measure of ranking, not a monthly one.
it is fairly common for a ladder to have resets, although monthly is probably not that common ,but yearly or quarterly is pretty common (like in hearthstone or starcraft ). The alternative is to have a steep decay when not playing, but thats very unfriendly in Chaos, because this will reward players with a lot of time.
SpiteAndMalice wrote:I'm not sure if I remember this right, but is the matchmaker setup to pure match players on level, or does it use that month's ELO rating? I thought that ELO was a factor.
it tries to do on elo unless there is no one around, but i very rarely play new players, usually only 1 or 2 games at start of month.I suspect there are barriers even when there is no one around (ie as rank 2 u never play a rank8 regardless of how many ppl queue) It is all guessing at this point though.

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Re: agreeing to play ranked league live

Post by Mazy » Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:02 pm

One thing I think should still be a concern is how the Elo system treats async timeouts.. Obviously timing out is effectively the same as a loss, so timing out versus multiple players or multiple timeouts versus the same player, either way, is gifting wins.

In the next update the async limit is increasing to 101 slots.. so now players can feasibly timeout in way more games than ever before, even if a player only times out 10-20 times a season, it still skews the ladder by distributing free wins and affecting win rates/Elo..

..With up to 100 games on the go players could be timing out in 50+ games a season, it only needs one player to mass time out in all their slots to effectively make the ladder null and void.. I have no idea what a good solution for this would be, I'm just pointing out that timeouts could have an even bigger effect on the ladder after the next update..

..Obviously it wouldn't work to not count timeouts as losses because then there really would be an exploit (players could just time out of losing matches to deny wins), so it's a really tough one to solve..

..but as it stands it can effect players incentive levels to get involved with playing ranked knowing that even if they play well in a season, the season could be decided elsewhere by timeouts..

..and there would be no way of knowing if this was the case because timeouts affect the Elo ratings in an intangible way because only W/L/D stats are displayed (perhaps a 'T' stat for 'timeouts' could be added, for transparency).

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Re: agreeing to play ranked league live

Post by Stitchy » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:54 pm

its a different topic but i agree on all mazy

maybe give the minimum amount of points possible on timeouts and cut that in half
so the timeout still gets a loss and the winner still wins but only gets half the points he would normally get for a win
(ie 4 rating points normally now u get only 2, or 2 stars normally becomes 1 etc)

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Re: agreeing to play ranked league live

Post by SpiteAndMalice » Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:42 am

Of course asynchs are exploitable in a similar way too:

If a low level player creates a batch of asynch duels
Someone wanting to exploit comes along, trys to setup an asynch and sees that they get matched with that new player.
They setup another asynch and see that they get matched with that same player.
Same happens again.

They can basically keep going and claim all of that new player's matchups, only stopping to create games when there's either no immediate match, or a more difficult opponent is matched against them.

To which live or asynch, there should be a cap on how many times you can gain ELO for facing the same opponent within the same month.
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Re: agreeing to play ranked league live

Post by worto03 » Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:52 am

SpiteAndMalice wrote: To which live or asynch, there should be a cap on how many times you can gain ELO for facing the same opponent within the same month.
I wasn't planning to get involved in this one again but just a quick one on this, I only want to play the game if it's 'worth' something, to me that's ELO rating which is why I play league instead of friendlies. If I'm being matched up for a game that will count for nothing I'd prefer not to play it but then you're back to two players sitting in the same queue both not playing.

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