Have guilds with no player leader (use game lore)

Discussion and questions about the latest version of Chaos Reborn. Not for bugs, but for comments about the game play.
anjovi
Posts: 1515
Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2014 5:34 am

Have guilds with no player leader (use game lore)

Post by anjovi » Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:07 pm

Saw farious' post in the wiki about guilds and orders from the lore guide and thought it'd be cool to have them in the game.
What they'd do is take the form of guilds with no players as the leader, which players can join without an invite.

This might spark some more guild action, and keep them a thing regardless of whether players running their own guilds are active enough. Gulds that allen stroud has made like the 'order of the star', 'ashikaga', 'stormsheim' could all be used.

Would work very good with guild profiles. As it'd give new guilds a frame of reference when creating their own. Just copy+pasting the lore from the respective orders into their guild profiles.

User avatar
NoWorries
GOD
Posts: 5039
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:17 am
Location: Baldrlux.com
Contact:

Re: Have guilds with no player leader (use game lore)

Post by NoWorries » Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:41 pm

I like the idea. It allows the lore to have a relevant voice in-game outside of the Realms which mention it.

That said, it does open up another set of concerns related to the integrity of guild rankings. Given the lack of membership oversight, if one of these guilds is doing well in the rankings, then a member of a rival guild could go over, intentionally lose matches to tank its score, and then return to their own guild. The current player-approval process helps curtail the potential of such abuse. Better perhaps just to enable players to request to join a guild rather than hope for an invite.

Additionally, we need not wait for new code to embrace lore from The Loremaster's Guide. Demigod players who are lore enthusiasts could one-by-one adopt guilds from the lore as their own. For example, the name of the Order of Anu could be changed to the Order of the Star. If more than one Demigod decides to lead the same Order, than they can simply reflect different factions of the same order or represent a schism. Exclusivity is not required. The lore is what we make of it.

P.S., the Order of Baldrlux is mentioned on page 27 of The Loremaster's Guide. Schisms and rival factions are welcome.
___________________________
  • One Theme to rule them all, One Theme to find them, One Theme to bring them all and in the Chaos bind them.
    NoWorries plays as Baldr, God of Wonder & Progress | Compete together with Baldr in the Order of Baldrlux

User avatar
Farious
Posts: 1211
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2015 9:36 am
Location: England
Contact:

Re: Have guilds with no player leader (use game lore)

Post by Farious » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:17 pm

Players could be allocated a non-Player guild automatically and those Guilds simply not show up in rankings. For me, the benefit of non-player Guilds would be to allow the inclusion of a tangible benefit, a carrot, to encourage Players to join player Guilds; eg you could only win a Trophy for Tournaments by being in a Player Guild because that would be the only way to enter. This can be justified in lore by stipulating that the Tournaments are only open to Guilds with a persistent headquarters in the Shattered Worlds & not in Limbo. This also allows the possibility of Guilds being able to pick from a number of perks as these would be balanced due to ALL Players being in a Guild of one form and the Limbo based Guilds having base Perks. A forge style Point system could be used and to differentiate it from whatever Spell or Perk Gods get; the Guilds could have simple modifiers either to do with global attributes, such as Gold or Forge Crystals, or battle attributes similar to Talismans? Random examples (Of course, these are just off the top of my head after reading Anjovi's excellent idea and could be so flawed I don't know what):
+x% Gold Per Victory, -x Cost Per Forge, -x% Cost of Epic Armour, +x% Experience Per Battle, +x% Casting Chance for Law Creatures etc (you get the drift)

This would also be another level of Wizard Customisation that should be quite easy to implement and imho the more we make people invested in there wizard the more they'll get invested in Chaos Reborn.

Farious

User avatar
SpiteAndMalice
DEMIGOD
Posts: 6276
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:45 pm
Location: UK
Contact:

Re: Have guilds with no player leader (use game lore)

Post by SpiteAndMalice » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:18 pm

Like No Worries says, I think it's very difficult for a game to have guilds competiting within it without some form of regulation of guild membership. At the moment, it needs a human guild leader to do that.

A non player led guild creates a situation where all members of the guild are equal, which is a nice ethos, but it's not to say that a player couldn't create a guild with that ethos if they wanted to - I personally think to make a guild function effectively that it needs people to take an active role in running it (ideally more than one).

I also think the idea of autonomous lore based gulds possibly has a fatal flaw of making the assumption that the lore within Chaos Reborn is attractive to its playerbase as a whole. Within realms, you might well be interacting with a different group of players who are into the lore, but in PvP I generally don't see much interest in it. To which I would say that one or two player led lore based realms is more than enough, adding more would just dilute your potential membership.
Image

The Guild of the Cephalopods is now recruiting - We embrace all.

- Chief Tentacle Arranger in The Guild of the Cephalopods.

User avatar
NoWorries
GOD
Posts: 5039
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:17 am
Location: Baldrlux.com
Contact:

Re: Have guilds with no player leader (use game lore)

Post by NoWorries » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:22 pm

Farious wrote:This would also be another level of Wizard Customisation that should be quite easy to implement and imho the more we make people invested in there wizard the more they'll get invested in Chaos Reborn.
Solid ideas in your post, which merits a discussion thread of its own. Though I should mention that automatically allocating new players to guilds which have no connection to player-run guilds relevant to PvP likely would undermine the development of player-run guilds and also annoy/confuse players about guild membership more than it helps.
___________________________
  • One Theme to rule them all, One Theme to find them, One Theme to bring them all and in the Chaos bind them.
    NoWorries plays as Baldr, God of Wonder & Progress | Compete together with Baldr in the Order of Baldrlux

User avatar
SpiteAndMalice
DEMIGOD
Posts: 6276
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:45 pm
Location: UK
Contact:

Re: Have guilds with no player leader (use game lore)

Post by SpiteAndMalice » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:32 pm

Farious wrote:Players could be allocated a non-Player guild automatically and those Guilds simply not show up in rankings. For me, the benefit of non-player Guilds would be to allow the inclusion of a tangible benefit, a carrot, to encourage Players to join player Guilds; eg you could only win a Trophy for Tournaments by being in a Player Guild because that would be the only way to enter. This can be justified in lore by stipulating that the Tournaments are only open to Guilds with a persistent headquarters in the Shattered Worlds & not in Limbo. This also allows the possibility of Guilds being able to pick from a number of perks as these would be balanced due ALL Players being in a Guild of one form and the Limbo based Guilds having base Perks. A forge style Point system could be used and to differentiate it from whatever Spell or Perk Gods get; the Guilds could have simple modifiers either to do with global attributes, such as Gold or Forge Crystals, or battle attributes similar to Talismans? Random examples (Of course, these are just off the top of my head after reading Anjovi's excellent idea and could be so flawed I don't know what):
+x% Gold Per Victory, -x Cost Per Forge, -x% Cost of Epic Armour, +x% Experience Per Battle, +x% Casting Chance for Law Creatures etc (you get the drift)

This would also be another level of Wizard Customisation that should be quite easy to implement and imho the more we make people invested in there wizard the more they'll get invested in Chaos Reborn.

Farious

You can't 'make' people interested in something.

They're either interested because something is interesting to them, or they're not.

Forcing players to be members of guilds whether they like it or not will create a backlash and cause people who are currently not bothered about guilds to either actively resent them, or to walk away from the game. They won't suddenly become interested because they're being told that they have to be in one in order to achieve x, y, or z.

If we run them in the right way guilds can be a good social feature that adds to the community, for those who want that. But it must stay on a voluntary basis as to whether individual players wish to be a part of that or not. Just because we like the idea of guilds, let's not lose sight of the fact that other people don't.
Image

The Guild of the Cephalopods is now recruiting - We embrace all.

- Chief Tentacle Arranger in The Guild of the Cephalopods.

User avatar
Farious
Posts: 1211
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2015 9:36 am
Location: England
Contact:

Re: Have guilds with no player leader (use game lore)

Post by Farious » Sat Sep 02, 2017 7:54 am

SpiteAndMalice wrote:You can't 'make' people interested in something.
In video games Players customising their character is a thing and companies such as Bethesda, Firaxis & Frontier Developments invest substantial resources into creating systems that allow this to happen because it works. Guilds giving a tangible benefit will not only generate Player interest in them but give Players a reason to aim to create one. The jury is not out on this issue it is proven in the field and has companies spending their hard earned cash making it happen.
SpiteAndMalice wrote:They're either interested because something is interesting to them, or they're not.
For people to be interested in something it has to be interesting. Guilds currently are not as they are merely a different way of categorising information at present which most Players have no psychological bond with and an award mechanism may help but most Players are simply not going to be interested in fighting for Players they do not know in some depth.
SpiteAndMalice wrote:Forcing players to be members of guilds whether they like it or not will create a backlash
No it won't as they are not run by Players. Most games 'force' the Player to take sides whether that be country, clan, or guild… in fact it is how most games work.
SpiteAndMalice wrote:If we run them in the right way guilds can be a good social feature that adds to the community,
People are not going to use CR as their chat client. If you want guilds to be a social feature then you might as well just bin it now. Like in every other game and game feature, Guilds need to serve a tangible reason for Players interact with them.

Farious

User avatar
SpiteAndMalice
DEMIGOD
Posts: 6276
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:45 pm
Location: UK
Contact:

Re: Have guilds with no player leader (use game lore)

Post by SpiteAndMalice » Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:33 am

Farious wrote:
SpiteAndMalice wrote:You can't 'make' people interested in something.
In video games Players customising their character is a thing and companies such as Bethesda, Firaxis & Frontier Developments invest substantial resources into creating systems that allow this to happen because it works. Guilds giving a tangible benefit will not only generate Player interest in them but give Players a reason to aim to create one. The jury is not out on this issue it is proven in the field and has companies spending their hard earned cash making it happen.
Just because some small section of games do something doesn't mean that it works for all games, this is like saying that because steak pies are popular in butcher's shop that they should be sold in all other shops. It's a logical flaw.

At the end of the day players play a game because that game is a good game, not because they could choose their eye colour, or how pointy their ears are.

People play Chaos Reborn because the core gameplay mechanic is good. Investing very limited development time into frilly fanny customisation options is a waste of resources.

Certainly nobody who's thinking to stop playing Chaos Reborn is going to hang around on the strength of not being in some manditory guild that they didn't have a choice about joining.
Image

The Guild of the Cephalopods is now recruiting - We embrace all.

- Chief Tentacle Arranger in The Guild of the Cephalopods.

User avatar
SpiteAndMalice
DEMIGOD
Posts: 6276
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:45 pm
Location: UK
Contact:

Re: Have guilds with no player leader (use game lore)

Post by SpiteAndMalice » Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:39 am

Farious wrote: People are not going to use CR as their chat client. If you want guilds to be a social feature then you might as well just bin it now. Like in every other game and game feature, Guilds need to serve a tangible reason for Players interact with them.

Farious
Actually a lot the early engagement with Chaos Reborn was aided by how good the chat community was on lawandchaos. It's just a shame that it took so long for this feature to come into the game because it could have done wonders early on.

As for guilds being a social feature, well time will tell, but as it stands The Cephs are going along quite happily with a focus on being social.

I played Hattrick for a good number of years, the entire focus of guilds there was to be social - The playerbase was in the millions, maybe that's the Steak Pie that CR needs to start selling.
Image

The Guild of the Cephalopods is now recruiting - We embrace all.

- Chief Tentacle Arranger in The Guild of the Cephalopods.

User avatar
SpiteAndMalice
DEMIGOD
Posts: 6276
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:45 pm
Location: UK
Contact:

Re: Have guilds with no player leader (use game lore)

Post by SpiteAndMalice » Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:53 am

Farious wrote:
SpiteAndMalice wrote:They're either interested because something is interesting to them, or they're not.
For people to be interested in something it has to be interesting. Guilds currently are not as they are merely a different way of categorising information at present which most Players have no psychological bond with and an award mechanism may help but most Players are simply not going to be interested in fighting for Players they do not know in some depth.
You don't make something interesting by making it manditory, you just take away player choice.
Farious wrote:
SpiteAndMalice wrote:Forcing players to be members of guilds whether they like it or not will create a backlash
No it won't as they are not run by Players. Most games 'force' the Player to take sides whether that be country, clan, or guild… in fact it is how most games work.
Do you have data on this or are you just saying 'most' because that's how you think it should work?

There's taking sides within the action of a game is a core element that helps to add tension to the plot. The good guy vs the bad guy(s), the evil magician kidnaps the beautiful princess and the hero tries to rescue her.

Whether there's a faction based metagame existing outside of that game is not a necessary element, nor is it a given.

Battlefield for example places the player onto one side or the other at random. Players don't tend to care which side they are on, it's the battle that counts.

The same could be said of 2v2 or 3v3 in CR. You don't need to be part of a guild in order for that game mode to function or to want to win that battle.
Image

The Guild of the Cephalopods is now recruiting - We embrace all.

- Chief Tentacle Arranger in The Guild of the Cephalopods.

Locked