Small Tweaks Can Make PvP Far More Newbie-Friendly

Discussion and questions about the latest version of Chaos Reborn. Not for bugs, but for comments about the game play.

  • New players try Duels (or League) and are pit against very experienced players who are focused on improving their rankings. (Confirmed in discussions with newbies.) Alternatively, they are pit against an AI with whom they try to chat but who never responds. (Witnessed time and again through Spectate.) Either way, newbies don't have a smooth transition in to the game and do not end up sticking around. In that context, here are some suggestions that may help retain newbies:

    • Inform players if they are fighting an AI. Otherwise, newbies think the community is unfriendly.

    • Allow players to fight AIs only. It's disheartening for a level 1 newbie to have to repeatedly play a Level 90+ veteran every other time they enter a Duel. Also, we know level is just a number; newbies don't. Allow newbies to learn the game how they want to learn it. Moreover, Duels are the surest way to get talismans that they are lacking.

    • Give all newbies sufficient talismans to get started. At the very least, all new players should start with enough talismans to configure their starting staff. I've had too many duels facing new players who have no or too few talismans. I'm not opposed to all players having an easier (possibly instant) access to more (or even all) talismans.

    • Increase the visibility of guilds. I've yet to meet a new player (and few experienced players) who were aware of guilds existing except for me telling them about it. The other threads about this topic provide sufficient rationales.
    ___________________________

      One Theme to rule them all, One Theme to find them, One Theme to bring them all and in the Chaos bind them.
      NoWorries plays as Baldr, God of Wonder & Progress | Compete together with Baldr in the Order of Baldrlux
    User avatar
    NoWorries
    GOD
     
    Posts: 5013
    Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:17 am
    Location: Baldrlux.com


  • NoWorries wrote:
    • Give all newbies sufficient talismans to get started..


    I'd be dead set against this tbh. One of the reasons for CR's Player retention problem is that most Players 'complete' the game in a couple of months and so disappear never to be seen again. Giving Players less to aim for would make this situation worse not better imho.

    Farious
    User avatar
    Farious
     
    Posts: 1211
    Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2015 9:36 am
    Location: England


  • Good topic, this game could be a lot more newbie friendly.

    Make Duels available in Classic modes. These are easier to understand, and don't pit (new) players with no equipment against opponents with tried and tested loadouts.

    Direct new players to custom games rather than competitive PvP. Where there's a lot more chance that opponents will teach them the game rather than be concerned about their own rankings.

    Increase the time limit for turns for any player who is below a certain level. For example at < level 5 give 3 mins, between level 5 and 10 give 2 and half minutes. (Short time limits in general exclude anyone who can't play to that time limit, I can a see a lot new players being put off Duels and League because they can't move quick enough, or don't have time to consider their moves properly).
    Image

    The Guild of the Cephalopods is now recruiting - We embrace all.

    - Chief Tentacle Arranger in The Guild of the Cephalopods.
    User avatar
    SpiteAndMalice
    DEMIGOD
     
    Posts: 6132
    Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:45 pm
    Location: UK


  • Actually if you want to be newbie friendly; a better suggestion than signposting new players to custom games would be to change Duel wholesale into 'Friendlies'.

    Strip out the rankings (but maybe leave the missing talisman reward). That way it still gives new players something for taking part in Friendly battles, there's still a quick way to find matches, but experienced players no longer have the same incentive to bash the opposition.
    Image

    The Guild of the Cephalopods is now recruiting - We embrace all.

    - Chief Tentacle Arranger in The Guild of the Cephalopods.
    User avatar
    SpiteAndMalice
    DEMIGOD
     
    Posts: 6132
    Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:45 pm
    Location: UK


  • Farious wrote:I'd be dead set against this tbh. One of the reasons for CR's Player retention problem is that most Players 'complete' the game in a couple of months and so disappear never to be seen again. Giving Players less to aim for would make this situation worse not better imho.

    I'm less concerned about players moving on after playing a couple of months. That is quite common in the best of games. I'm more concerned of players playing past the first couple of hours. In that context, what's the harm of giving players at least 6 talismans that would fit their starting staff? There are still 100 more left to be found.

    I often encounter newbies in Duels with 0 talismans. Put yourself in their shoes. In a recent encounter, a 1st level player's first Duel found him facing off against me. I was nice about it. We talked it through. But that's not always happening, especially now that Duels are ranked. Allowing newbies to be ripped up in ranked play without minimum kit? That's mean.

    Most successful PvP games have a matchmaker that does at least a token job of matching skill levels. Here, our playerbase is way too small to do that. If we had a larger playerbase and an effective matchmaker, then I'd be fine. Cuz then we'd be having only level 1-10 players facing off against each other instead of against players who've put 1,000+ hours in to the game. But we don't. So we have to work with the reality we have if we want to have a hope of reaching a reality we want.
    ___________________________

      One Theme to rule them all, One Theme to find them, One Theme to bring them all and in the Chaos bind them.
      NoWorries plays as Baldr, God of Wonder & Progress | Compete together with Baldr in the Order of Baldrlux
    User avatar
    NoWorries
    GOD
     
    Posts: 5013
    Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:17 am
    Location: Baldrlux.com


  • SpiteAndMalice wrote:Strip out the rankings (but maybe leave the missing talisman reward). That way it still gives new players something for taking part in Friendly battles, there's still a quick way to find matches, but experienced players no longer have the same incentive to bash the opposition.

    Then players like me would stop making the effort to battle other humans. Duels for me and players like me are more enjoyable now that they are ranked and other players have an incentive to bash other players.

    Perhaps some alternative compromises such as: (1) lock Duels to only players who have a completely kitted gear set, including all talismans full, (2) lock Duels to only players who have reached level 12 or higher or somesuch, or (3) only match players lower than level 11 to each other so veterans don't take advantage of them to improve their ranking.
    ___________________________

      One Theme to rule them all, One Theme to find them, One Theme to bring them all and in the Chaos bind them.
      NoWorries plays as Baldr, God of Wonder & Progress | Compete together with Baldr in the Order of Baldrlux
    User avatar
    NoWorries
    GOD
     
    Posts: 5013
    Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:17 am
    Location: Baldrlux.com


  • SpiteAndMalice wrote:Good topic, this game could be a lot more newbie friendly.

    Make Duels available in Classic modes. These are easier to understand, and don't pit (new) players with no equipment against opponents with tried and tested loadouts.

    I really appreciate the engagement and feedback. Thank you.

    The single most common complaint I've heard from multiple newbies is that there is too much RNG. By my observation, most low level players stick with law mode because it's easier to digest and more closely related to games of which they have experience. I.e., think of the X-COM crowd that are attracted by Julian's name or else have keys. I've tried to explain to Law-focused or new'ish players that playing Classic style is the best way to learn the game, especially before they get a full kit. Only a few of them seemed to get it, and they may have been just being polite.

    Basically, if it's available, I'm not sure it would be embraced as an option of first resort by newbies. That said, perhaps the matchmaker might work out that players are only matched with players or AIs who have the same number of talismans installed as they do? Might be a way to sneak in some semblance of Classic in to the mix, like sneaking a pill in to your pet by coating it in peanut butter.
    ___________________________

      One Theme to rule them all, One Theme to find them, One Theme to bring them all and in the Chaos bind them.
      NoWorries plays as Baldr, God of Wonder & Progress | Compete together with Baldr in the Order of Baldrlux
    User avatar
    NoWorries
    GOD
     
    Posts: 5013
    Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:17 am
    Location: Baldrlux.com


  • I've tried raising the issues surrounding the merits of duel mode as an introduction to Chaos several times. It was clearly never going to be something that new players were going to take to easily given the nature of the intricate mechanics of the game combined with the limitations placed in the mode.

    The limitations on map size and and turn times didn't water down the format to the point of making it more accessible or easy for them, it made it less accessible by making it harder, which in turn induced more cries of 'RNG is bad' (map size directly relates to how noticeable RNG is and how much it affects the outcome) ..

    ..It's very hard to convince new players that Chaos is a game of skill when you reduce the skill gap that much in an introductory mode.

    It was unlikely that new players were going to learn the game through playing a quick fire format on undersized maps, I don't think it was considered what impact imposing those limitations would have on the overall gameplay experience and balance, for both veterans and newbies.

    ..For experienced players It just removed the depth of the 1v1 format which used to showcase the game brilliantly (the map reworks for duel mode were universal, so 1v1 ranked and 1v1 custom tournaments were forced to use duel maps).

    That's not to say it's a bad mode, there is still a market for it, not everyone has the time or patience for playing Chaos. I think the main motivation behind the creation of the mode was to provide a quick-play format for a sub-sect of experienced players who..

    a) already knew how to play, had full knowledge of the game (therefore didn't need much time to think about moves, look through card info/talisman info/board info etc)
    b) don't have a lot of disposal time and just want to log in/play a fast lite version of the game/log out
    c) like grinding/farming xp/gold/crystals and leaderboards in the shortest possible time
    d) enjoy the fact that there is a mode within the game that has maps and mechanics that allow them to cheese wins in imbalanced/repetitive ways

    As Chaos regulars we forget how lucky we were to have learnt the game from scratch during the early access process, the early versions of the game pooled us all into only a couple of different formats. These formats were well designed and conducive to learning and were interesting enough to draw us deep into the game.

    The convoluted sea of modes and formats that have come after EA are likely overwhelming to new players, it's understandable they start in duel mode (and law mode).. imagine what our impression of the game would have been if duel mode was the first mode we played..

    ..that's what is happening right now with new players trying out CR via duels. I don't think there's anything interesting or appealing about the non-tactical nature of duel maps and duel timers, the gameplay we experienced in EA doesn't match up to what new players experience now, it doesn't really capture or replicate the same level of great gameplay that encouraged us to learn, and love, the game.

    There's no doubt that duel mode could probably be made less niche and more newb friendly.. I think making 1v1 more newb friendly would actually in turn make it 'pro friendly' again, because it would restore the well structured finely tuned 1v1 gameplay that had already been established (pre duel).
    User avatar
    Mazy
     
    Posts: 1722
    Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:24 pm
    Location: UK


  • The OP suggestions are very agreeable. The talisman thing can work great as it gets rid of that "oh i've got nothing and level 99 over here has 6 talismans that are turning trees into elves, and bufffing his stuffs! wtf!?"

    giving these off at the start i think would encourage players to find more of them, having gotten a taste for them.

    small maps....keep bringing this up mazy, this is a big issue with the game, i'm sure of it. I loved the old maps, and the new ones open up the game to early turn cheesing stuff and makes the game more swingy then it has to be. Swingy referring to how much RNG swings the odds from one player to another.
    anjovi
     
    Posts: 1440
    Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2014 5:34 am


  • anjovi wrote:small maps....keep bringing this up mazy, this is a big issue with the game, i'm sure of it. I loved the old maps, and the new ones open up the game to early turn cheesing stuff and makes the game more swingy then it has to be. Swingy referring to how much RNG swings the odds from one player to another.

    Agreed. Now that Duels are ranked, too, the total competitive 1v1 experience might be improved with more balance and more players if they were consolidated in to Duels. (See the thread on consolidation here.) With sconsolidation, we could upgrade the 1v1 maps back to how they were. Agreed with Mazy's point, too, that one of the major reasons we old-timers fell in love with the game was the strength of the older maps. Right now, against human opponents, first turn advantage matters a lot, and it's incredibly easy to get against a human opponent simply by keeping an eye on Spectate.
    ___________________________

      One Theme to rule them all, One Theme to find them, One Theme to bring them all and in the Chaos bind them.
      NoWorries plays as Baldr, God of Wonder & Progress | Compete together with Baldr in the Order of Baldrlux
    User avatar
    NoWorries
    GOD
     
    Posts: 5013
    Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:17 am
    Location: Baldrlux.com

Next


Return to Gameplay Discussion




Information
  • Who is online
  • Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest