magic trees need a nerf

Discussion and questions about the latest version of Chaos Reborn. Not for bugs, but for comments about the game play.
Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:33 pm

  • Stitchy wrote:lower defense in that case because at the moment you need like 70+ attack to slay them reliably.


    What does 'slay them reliably' mean? - You can kill anything with anything given sufficient turns.

    And you'll certainly kill trees faster than they'll kill you.
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Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:16 pm

  • Stitchy wrote:sorry but this "if someone cast trees i will just farm the mana " isnt very convincing
    first of all the trees have 50 defense which is not something u slap around easily
    secondly with 140mp they are rather resilient to magic attacks and they buff anyone around with +30mp as well (which is even stronger in classic).
    So yes lets farm trees but lower defense in that case because at the moment you need like 70+ attack to slay them reliably.
    and if they are defended (by elves or dragons).. well you need an army of undead (against the law alignment?) to get close and those are rather bad vs trees. And do not forget you to do all this just against 1 card (which is 5 trees), which can be easily cast at turn 1.

    on top of this:
    -the trees offer a shield to anyone who is in them
    -they give cards
    -they can not be blobbed
    -they deny a zone where no other (shadow) trees can be put
    -they can block or make choke points
    -they provide a travel network
    -they can be turned into elves/blobs
    -high end card for an entry level card cost (70%)

    not one of the possibilities as a standalone is overpowered (including the elves), but the combination makes it rather ridiculous.

    Now in classic u might think it is not much of a problem, just because the deck generation might not make it as common
    But the fact that you dont notice it does not make it less overpowered.Imagine every player casting trees, which was last months trend, the game becomes a boring grind/stalemate and the map denied of all other growths or blobs etc, all the mana farmed only gets more trees on all sides. The elves are not the problem. It is just too easy to just say its just a problem of equipped/talismans because it isnt. And no: shadow wood would not even come close, not even if they would turn into elves.

    For me it is obvious that they are too strong, but that might be just me.


    But then the same could be said about Shadow Wood which offer similar points

    -the trees offer a chance to attack an enemy at close range
    -they can not be blobbed
    -they deny a zone where no other (Magic) trees can be put
    -they can block or make choke points
    -they can be turned into Goblins/blobs
    -high end card for an entry level card cost (70%)

    Magic Wood represents the points you've made which were first implemented in the original spectrum game.

    I must admit they should stay the same like the original except they should be green with brown stem to make it look more like the tree in Chaos - The Battle Of Wizards

    Just because they are at 70% does not guarantee they will be cast successfully all the time.

    Magic trees were there to hopefully gain a spell that could be used to further the wizard's arsenal or to gain the famous spell of all - TURMOIL.

    I myself prefer Vines in equipped for these reasons:

    -they can not be blobbed
    -they have a higher defence - 200 points
    -they can block or make choke points
    -they can be turned into Spiders
    -high end card for an entry level card cost (80%)
    -combined with megaspell they can cause no end of trouble for the enemy as you 10 vines

    Trees should stay the same.
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Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:00 pm

  • "they can not be blobbed" i meant to say "a wizard in a tree can not be blobbed" which means it is the best counter against blobs.The point is not to compare different growths but to judge the impact of a certain card on gameplay in this case magic trees (and not shadow trees). "Try hiding in shadow trees and shadow trees do not give cards etc" .This is avoiding the argument by starting another.

    SpiteAndMalice wrote:What does 'slay them reliably' mean? - You can kill anything with anything given sufficient turns.


    SpiteAndMalice wrote:when you cast trees in those formats you're just lighting a beacon above your head which says come over here and farm me for mana!


    to farm means to slay them reliably (i.e.safe and quick enough to make it worth it).

    Grythandril wrote:Magic Wood represents the points you've made which were first implemented in the original spectrum game


    There are so many things in Chaos Reborn that are not like the original spectrum game, that makes this a rather convenient argument: when it suits all should be like original, when it does not the original is not mentioned at all (shall we abandon the 3dmap? the high end graphics? the online multiplayer? ) If you want to play the original why not play that? I certainly do not want to. Reborn means better balanced (right or wrong,this is what i am after in this topic) ,more upgraded and evoluted not just copied.
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Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:49 pm

  • Stitchy wrote:
    Grythandril wrote:Magic Wood represents the points you've made which were first implemented in the original spectrum game


    There are so many things in Chaos Reborn that are not like the original spectrum game, that makes this a rather convenient argument: when it suits all should be like original, when it does not the original is not mentioned at all (shall we abandon the 3dmap? the high end graphics? the online multiplayer? ) If you want to play the original why not play that? I certainly do not want to. Reborn means better balanced (right or wrong,this is what i am after in this topic) ,more upgraded and evoluted not just copied.


    Not quite here is list of what Magic Trees offered in the original spectrum Chaos

    -the trees offer a shield to anyone who is in them
    -they give cards
    -they can not be blobbed
    -they deny a zone where no other (shadow) trees can be put
    -they can block or make choke points (depending on the programming of the spectrum)
    -they provide a travel network
    -high end card for an entry level card cost (80%) 10% higher than CR

    In addition you were able to pinch an enemy magic tree by moving your wizard into them to hopefully gain a spell and offer protection. But alas you cannot do that in Chaos Reborn

    As you can see it offered many similar things. but Chaos reborn adds more to the game to make the gameplay more interesting

    So Chaos Reborn is taking the elements from the original and trying to improve them while keeping some of the original feel to it.
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Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:19 pm

  • so basically u agree with me that magic trees need a nerf?

    but instead of my modest inclination to lower defense from 50 to 40
    you prefer a massive nerf by changing the whole mechanics of magic trees, by letting the enemy wizard occupy it?

    i already said that it might be interesting, however i am not sure what the impact of that might be on the current game.
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Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:29 pm

  • Good point - I went for a +1 on letting other wizards using trees mostly out of nostalgia from the original, it might well completely unbalance the game. I'm really not good at balancing games.

    I'm actually amazed at how balanced CR has been through all the iterations I've seen since the start.

    In chaos mode anyway. Law mode is still completely unbalanced in my opinion.
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Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:03 pm

  • The reason to let any wizard enter trees is because being able to do that was/would be fun, wanting more fun in the game has got nothing to do with a spell being nerfed or buffed.

    I think in the original it was 7 trees rather than 5 though, so increasing the number whilst letting any wizard enter them would keep the balance closer.... you could maybe put it back to a 80% cast as well.
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Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:31 pm

  • Stitchy wrote:"they can not be blobbed" i meant to say "a wizard in a tree can not be blobbed" which means it is the best counter against blobs.The point is not to compare different growths but to judge the impact of a certain card on gameplay in this case magic trees (and not shadow trees). "Try hiding in shadow trees and shadow trees do not give cards etc" .This is avoiding the argument by starting another.

    SpiteAndMalice wrote:What does 'slay them reliably' mean? - You can kill anything with anything given sufficient turns.


    SpiteAndMalice wrote:when you cast trees in those formats you're just lighting a beacon above your head which says come over here and farm me for mana!


    to farm means to slay them reliably (i.e.safe and quick enough to make it worth it).


    If it were safe and quick to kill anything in CR then nobody would cast whatever that anything was - The whole point is that you have to take a risk.

    'How' much of a risk you're willing to take is subjective and situational.

    But even a single rat attacking a tree has a 16.67% chance of killing it - On average they'll take one down every 6 turns.

    With a Dwarf it's an average of 3.5 turns, a Goblin take an average of 2.67 turns, a charging Unicorn in 2.25, a Paladin every 2 turns and this is just attacking with 1 creature.
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Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:01 am

  • Stitchy wrote:"they can not be blobbed" i meant to say "a wizard in a tree can not be blobbed" which means it is the best counter against blobs.The point is not to compare different growths but to judge the impact of a certain card on gameplay in this case magic trees (and not shadow trees). "Try hiding in shadow trees and shadow trees do not give cards etc" .This is avoiding the argument by starting another.


    How can you say in the same post that x is the 'best' counter to y, and then 'but nobody is allowed to make any comparisons' ?

    Surely if you're claiming that something is the best, then you have to consider the alternative in order to make that claim... (in the bigger picture if you're claiming that something should be nerfed then you need to consider that something in comparison to its nearest alternatives i.e. other growth spells).

    Shadow Woods might not enable you to hide from blob, but they will make short work of it which in many cases is a better alternative to being required to hide. If you're blobbed out in the open, you can cast Shadow Wood around you to attempt to gain freedom on the next turn... unless you're already inside a Tree when blob is cast then the spell is of no use in trying to escape, and even if you are already inside a tree, you've a chance to be stranded from the rest of your trees and subsequently overwhelmed once your current tree dies. Being mounted when blobbed complicates things further as in that instance moving into a tree can be a downgrade whilst trying to escape from an area of the map that contains blob, whereas Shadow Wood gives you the potential to gain both you and your mount freedom from blob in order to either escape the situation or counter attack on the next turn, meanwhile you're harvesting mana from the rest of the blob.

    As far as growths in general go, the only one that I think is actually a strong spell is Crystal Wall, that and especially it's mega can, in the right situation, be an absolute game changer. Playing 6 ways, Wall is the only growth spell which I'd consider using the staff for. Tangle's best use it to turn a loss into a draw, Shadow is average to poor, and Trees can occasionally be good, but more often than not they're terrible - being more of a liability with the amount of mana that they give to oppositions.
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Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:13 am

  • SpiteAndMalice wrote:I think in the original it was 7 trees rather than 5 though, so increasing the number whilst letting any wizard enter them would keep the balance closer.... you could maybe put it back to a 80% cast as well.



    But that wouldnt work as the player could just cast as few or as many as they wanted. You have to remember that in the original you didnt get to place the trees, the spell just spat them out based on available space it could find to place them. Plus you get 10 with the mega so you would have to redo that as well.


    And putting more fun in the game is never a bad thing. Games are supposed to be fun after all.
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