v0.20 Retreating - the good, the bad and the ugly

Discussion and questions about the latest version of Chaos Reborn. Not for bugs, but for comments about the game play.

  • NoWorries wrote:The only proposal concerning retreat that will actually speed up gameplay is to remove retreat altogether.


    I disagree. Without retreat, the only way to remove enemy creatures blocking their wizard is to kill them. With retreat, there exists another possibility of gaining access to the enemy wizard.

    With more potential to attack the enemy wizard, a well-implemented retreat would actually speed up the game, rather than slow it down.
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  • I have yet to play a game where retreat did anything but lengthen the game. As currently implemented, a retreating creature is one that would have otherwise died. By retreating, the creature lives to impede the attacker again with another attack or move. By dying, the creature is eliminated as a possible impediment.

    Theoretically, a retreating creature lives to kill an enemy wizard. In reality, a retreating creature lives primarily to challenge its attacker again, thus preventing the attacker from killing its enemy wizard. Moreover, a surfeit of surviving creatures makes the arena more crowded with creatures. Crowded arenas are a nemesis of speedy gameplay.

    That said, if retreat is to remain as a mechanic, we should consider this observation:

    Ped209 @ viewtopic.php?f=6&t=668&p=7032#p7032 wrote:The kill % currently shown isn't the actual Kill % btw.

    Ped209's observation is true because, now, the % of a successful attack no longer is the % of killing the foe. Rather, now, the % of a successful attack is the % of invoking a retreat test. Only if the foe fails the retreat test does it actually die.

    So if retreat is to remain, the non-math people of the world humbly beseech that we be presented the only % that actually matters... the % chance of killing the foes which offend our wizards.
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  • NoWorries wrote:
    Ped209 @ viewtopic.php?f=6&t=668&p=7032#p7032 wrote:The kill % currently shown isn't the actual Kill % btw.

    Ped209's observation is true because, now, the % of a successful attack no longer is the % of killing the foe. Rather, now, the % of a successful attack is the % of invoking a retreat test. Only if the foe fails the retreat test does it actually die.

    So if retreat is to remain, the non-math people of the world humbly beseech that we be presented the only % that actually matters... the % chance of killing the foes which offend our wizards.


    I brought this up with Julian the other day, he agreed that showing the %'s based on the overall likelihood out of 100% makes more sense and gives the player a better chance of accurately assessing the available moves. I made a tool that allows you to select any creature and it gives all of the %'s of encounters, attacking and defending, against all other creatures. The difference to the overall kill % is quite significant in some cases.

    for example Emerald Dragon attacking Goblin
    screen says melee: Kill 83%, Retreat 35%. ranged: Kill 67%, Retreat 19%
    Actual Kill chance melee: 54%, Retreat 29%. ranged: Kill 54%, retreat 13%

    if retreat stays in for the next version I think this will be changed and hopefully the stats tweaked to increase the kill % again.
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  • Ped209 wrote:screen says melee: Kill 83%, Retreat 35%. ranged: Kill 67%, Retreat 19%
    Actual Kill chance melee: 54%, Retreat 29%. ranged: Kill 54%, retreat 13%

    To help me grok what's going on, would the actual chances translate to this:

      Melee - 54% Kill Chance, 29% Survive & Retreat Chance, and 17% Survive & Stay Chance; and
      Range - 54% Kill Chance, 13% Survive & Retreat Chance, and 33% Survive & Stay Chance?
    Basically, is each set of probability part of the same 100% spectrum?
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  • NoWorries wrote:Melee - 54% Kill Chance, 29% Survive & Retreat Chance, and 17% Survive & Stay Chance; and
    Range - 54% Kill Chance, 13% Survive & Retreat Chance, and 33% Survive & Stay Chance?


    yeah, that's right
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  • NoWorries wrote:I have yet to play a game where retreat did anything but lengthen the game. As currently implemented, a retreating creature is one that would have otherwise died. By retreating, the creature lives to impede the attacker again with another attack or move. By dying, the creature is eliminated as a possible impediment.


    The important part being "As currently implemented". A well-implemented retreat would shorten the game...

    But yeah, % shown on the creature should definitely be kill %.
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  • NoWorries wrote:
    Ped209 wrote:screen says melee: Kill 83%, Retreat 35%. ranged: Kill 67%, Retreat 19%
    Actual Kill chance melee: 54%, Retreat 29%. ranged: Kill 54%, retreat 13%

    To help me grok what's going on, would the actual chances translate to this:

      Melee - 54% Kill Chance, 29% Survive & Retreat Chance, and 17% Survive & Stay Chance; and
      Range - 54% Kill Chance, 13% Survive & Retreat Chance, and 33% Survive & Stay Chance?
    Basically, is each set of probability part of the same 100% spectrum?


    Why wouldn't it translate as actual:

    Melee - 48% Kill Chance, 35% Survive & Retreat Chance, and 17% Survive & Stay Chance; and
    Range - 48% Kill Chance, 19% Survive & Retreat Chance, and 33% Survive & Stay Chance?

    I thought the kill chance was now the chance showing minus the retreat chance?

    To that end wouldn't it be better to show all 3 percentages?
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  • DigitalDuck wrote:
    NoWorries wrote:The only proposal concerning retreat that will actually speed up gameplay is to remove retreat altogether.


    I disagree. Without retreat, the only way to remove enemy creatures blocking their wizard is to kill them. With retreat, there exists another possibility of gaining access to the enemy wizard.

    With more potential to attack the enemy wizard, a well-implemented retreat would actually speed up the game, rather than slow it down.


    Just killing the creature is a pretty effective way of gaining access to the enemy wizard ;-)

    The frustration is when the enemy wizard itself retreats... and all your 1 move creatures that we lined up to attack it are now no longer in range.
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  • Julian Gollop wrote:The introduction of the retreating mechanic was designed to give more of a role for the agility attribute and to add some more positional dynamics to the battle tactics. If a creature receives a killing blow, it may possibly retreat to avoid death. A creature/wizard may retreat to a space it may normally move to by walking that is not adjacent to an engaging enemy creature/wizard. The chance of retreating is never very high, certainly very unlikely to go above 50%.
    The precise formulas for determining retreat probability, for those who are interested, are as follows:
    for ranged attackers: defenders_agility / (defenders_agility+ 25);
    for close combat attacks: defenders_agility / (defenders_agility + attackers_agility * 2 + 5 )

    So the important questions are :
    Does it add anything interesting to the game?
    Is it easy to understand whats going on?
    Does it make things too complicated?
    Could there be any alternatives?

    I've presented several comments. I've also considered the many great comments of others. I look forward to seeing how it will all resolve. Meanwhile, here are my answers to the presented questions:

    Does it add anything interesting to the game? Not really. Sure, I've survived longer and pulled victory from the jaws of defeat more often because of retreat, but I rather I lost the game quicker so I could go on to play more games. So long as Retreat is used to reduce the % of killing creatures and wizards, Retreat's primary effect will be to make games last longer.

    Is it easy to understand whats going on? Yes. I'm quite impressed by the visual representations and such. It's very well done. That said, it is unclear what the %'s actually represent. E.g., as stated in an earlier comment, the % attack chance seems now to represent only the % chance of invoking a retreat test rather than a true % of defeating a creature.

    Does it make things too complicated? Yes. It is harder to assess the true chances of success in attack. Also, as more creatures survive longer in the arena, there are more actions to assess and move each turn.

    Could there be any alternatives? Yes. The introduction of Retreat seems to have been motivated to give Agility some importance in addition to determining engagement. There are other ways to do that. Here are some ideas:

    • Find another way to introduce Agility into the primary attack resolution equation. For example, where Magic Resistance became Magic Power, make Attack into Physical Power and Defense into Armor. Then Melee attacks can be resolved with ((Attacker's Physical Power + Agility)/2) versus ((Defender's Armor + Agility)/2). And Ranged attacks can be resolved by (Attacker's Agility) versus ((Defender's Armor+Agility)/2). Heck, Magic Bolts could be resolved by ((Attacker's Magic Power + Agility)/2) versus ((Defender's Armor + Agility)/2). [Edited to correct math error.]

    • Give a +1 advantage to the combatant with the higher Agility. Agility already determines engagement, which is a big deal. So maybe abstract the benefits of Agility by giving a defender a +1 to their Defense if they have a higher agility than the attacker. Perhaps the attacker also could get a +1 in their attack if they have a higher agility.

    • Test for Retreat only if a creature survives an attack rather than if it is defeated. Retreat currently applies only if a creature is otherwise killed in an attack. Instead, apply a Retreat test if the creature survives. This has subtle, but important, consequences. Creatures with high Agility get a head start if they want to try to run away from the aggressor or else press an attack against a more vulnerable victim. Also, the aggressor will need to use movement in order to press the attack. While not sexy, these are potent advantages. Maximizing movement for your own creatures while taking it away from your opponent's creatures is a valuable tactic.
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