v0.20 - Deck construction - the good, the bad and the ugly

Discussion and questions about the latest version of Chaos Reborn. Not for bugs, but for comments about the game play.
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Tess
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Re: v0.20 - Deck construction - the good, the bad and the ug

Post by Tess » Tue Sep 23, 2014 1:23 pm

Taking goldendragon76's idea a bit further, I could envisage a spell library screen in which the player is able to set for each spell a percentage chance of that spell appearing in their game deck, or rather a bias towards having that spell included or not. They wouldn't be able to guarantee a spell's inclusion or exclusion but could certainly bias the random selection towards their preference. Their chosen staff would limit how far the selection of certain spells can be biased one way or the other.

I do think that being forced to use all spells you find is a bit of a problem as it takes away the satisfaction of finding new spell books if you're concerned you might get something you don't want and are forced to use. Not sure how best to handle that though.

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Re: v0.20 - Deck construction - the good, the bad and the ug

Post by NoWorries » Tue Sep 23, 2014 3:45 pm

Tess wrote:I do think that being forced to use all spells you find is a bit of a problem as it takes away the satisfaction of finding new spell books if you're concerned you might get something you don't want and are forced to use. Not sure how best to handle that though.

Agreed. I can imagine players actively trying to keep their wizards from discovering new spells once the player is satisfied with their library spell list. Thus, in line with earlier posts, a spell library is problematic whether or not players can curate/discard spells from their library.

Perhaps a better, and thematic, implementation of the spell library system would be to utilize limited-use scrolls and tomes. Scrolls could be one-use spells that wizards could bring into a match to assure themselves that they can cast a certain spell. Tomes could be objects which contain multiple scrolls. And balance could be had by limiting the number of scrolls that a wizard can bring into a match. Heck, a hat trick (pun intended) could be to modify the number of scrolls that a wizard can bring into a match.

Julian Gollop has already mentioned that there may be opportunities to discover talismans which serve a similar functionality. (See his post here.) If this functionality is extended to scrolls and tomes, then voila... we have a library system which makes sense, is thematic, and inhibits a metagame around library management which would make Chaos Reborn more of a derivative implementation of Hearthstone, Magic: the Gathering, and such other card games.
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Re: v0.20 - Deck construction - the good, the bad and the ug

Post by Sephorin » Tue Sep 23, 2014 5:27 pm

I would miss the idea of spell libraries. Finding new and exciting spells would be a lot of fun. But I also agree with Tess: mechanics that encourage min-maxing are generally undesirable. The points that NoWorries posted here from another thread are also well taken. Perhaps some sort of happy medium can be achieved?

NoWorries wrote:Perhaps a better, and thematic, implementation of the spell library system would be to utilize limited-use scrolls and tomes. Scrolls could be one-use spells that wizards could bring into a match to assure themselves that they can cast a certain spell. Tomes could be objects which contain multiple scrolls.

A fine thought. I could definitely get behind this. It would seem to steer away from deck min-maxing while still giving the opportunity to find neat spells and customize decks with them (in a limited fashion).

If we do go the route of staff/equipment dictating what spells will be in your deck, then I don't think it's too much to ask that each staff be balanced individually. That is, maybe the Staff of Law doubles the chance for law spells to appear in your deck. But the Staff of Dragons triples the chance for dragons to appear in your deck. (Of course, I'm just throwing random numbers out there.)
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Re: v0.20 - Deck construction - the good, the bad and the ug

Post by goldendragon76 » Tue Sep 23, 2014 10:23 pm

What I don't like about starting off with a few weak spells and then finding more in the realms is how will the game play if all everyone has is weak goblins and the like? Will there still be a degree of strategy to winning the games or will it just be who gets lucky in a 50/50 situation?
At the other end of the spectrum, when you have found every spell there is to find, will playing Realms of Chaos still be fun or will people just stick to multi-player battles?
In my experience games that have no end have the best longevity. If you're finding limited use scrolls and the like it would help with this as you would forever need to replenish your stocks.

In the original Chaos you had to play solidly for about 6 months before you saw the Turmoil spell. Will there be super rare spells, scrolls and artefacts like this in Chaos Reborn?
It would be cool if after playing the game for a year and thinking you had seen everything there is to see you found an ultra rare creature or spell that you could then take to a multi player battle and amaze everyone with your rare spell that nobody had seen before! I know it would be a waste of developer time to make a creature or spell that is rarely seen but I don't think it would take too long to make a rare skin for a creature or even just use the same graphic but in a different colour turning it into a legendary Golden Dragon or Black Hydra, etc.

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Re: v0.20 - Deck construction - the good, the bad and the ug

Post by SpiteAndMalice » Wed Sep 24, 2014 7:28 am

Julian Gollop wrote:Deck construction is now heavily influenced by Staff type. Here are the rules:
1. First, 2 spells are added to the deck that match the staff type (randomly chosen)
2. Then spells are allocated to the deck randomly, but spells which match the staff type have twice their usual probability of being included.
3. There can be no more of 2 spells of the same type in a deck.

Does this work better than before?
Are there still problems?
Does it make sense?
What are the alternatives?



I do like 1 and 3 but not 2. As others have said it makes some decks less useful i.e. staff of mounts. Just using 1 would mean that the effect of a certain staff is never negated but more subtle. 3 gives more variety to a deck which is nice.
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Re: v0.20 - Deck construction - the good, the bad and the ug

Post by Ped209 » Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:37 am

I started putting this in response to a thread Rafi started but I think it makes more sense in here:

I think if the robes were added into the deck generator along with staff it would benefit the deck and enable you to get the best out of your robes.

Heroic gives slight boost to weapons/mount chance of appearing
Armour gives slight boost to (can't decide on this one...) tree/vines?
Arcane gives slight boost to bolt/magic attack/subversion chance of appearing

that way if you have heroic then without staff of weapons you are likely to still get 1 or 2, with it you are likely to get a lot.
The armour robe seems to be a good option for most play styles, encouraging turtling is not something I'm fond of but not sure what other spells make a lot of sense for it.
Arcane would also increase the chances of having magic attacks.

So you can still play to your wizards strengths no matter what combination you get.

IE Heroic + Staff of creatures you'd end up with a mostly creatures but likely a few weapons. Heroic + staff of law might be better as you would get weapons and mounts and creatures and be able to boost them all. Heroic + Staff of Weapons would be 'Total Warrior'.
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Re: v0.20 - Deck construction - the good, the bad and the ug

Post by SpiteAndMalice » Wed Sep 24, 2014 6:13 pm

Having thought about this a bit more the downside of limiting the number of a particular spell in your deck is that your opponents will know when you no longer have it available... I'm thinking specifically of things like magic bolt.

What if there were diminishing chances of the same spell appearing but no limit on how many times? So you could get 3 or 4 bolts however it would be unlikely?
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Re: v0.20 - Deck construction - the good, the bad and the ug

Post by RafiRomero » Wed Sep 24, 2014 6:48 pm

SpiteAndMalice wrote:Having thought about this a bit more the downside of limiting the number of a particular spell in your deck is that your opponents will know when you no longer have it available... I'm thinking specifically of things like magic bolt.

What if there were diminishing chances of the same spell appearing but no limit on how many times? So you could get 3 or 4 bolts however it would be unlikely?


Ah, I totally agree with this, fear of bolt is a big part of the fun for me:) I'm not even sure now I think about it I'd want a limit of 2 per hand, although I suppose it would stop you having a hand of 12 dwarfs or whatever. I think mainly more than 2 weapons is a waste of time (who wants 4 swords?). I've been in games where my opponent seems to have nothing but magical attacks, it was actually pretty good fun, I was all incredulous: it is good to be surprised!
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Re: v0.20 - Deck construction - the good, the bad and the ug

Post by NoWorries » Wed Sep 24, 2014 7:16 pm

Keep in mind that the 2 card max is for the default staves implemented for now in the prototype. As other equipment gets implemented (hats and robes), as talismans get added, and if (possibly) scrolls/tomes get implemented, there will be plenty of ways to mix up the probabilities to mitigate some of the current predictability.

I also imagine that staves themselves will come in different flavors. That's the entire point of the Forgemaster system which is being implemented.

So no worries! ;)
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Re: v0.20 - Deck construction - the good, the bad and the ug

Post by ustolemytiger » Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:59 pm

Ok dokey. I like the idea in principle and i could defo see it as an extra feature or ability in the game to be able to bind certain spells to certain staffs, cool.

In the pure PvP i find that it can be a bit op if you get the infamous staff of dragons or now prob my fav staff, staff of undead. Have played a few games where i had staff of undead, so two gauranteed undead, and few other undead. An almost pure undead deck is very very hard to beat. Although i do like in principle that your staff attracts the spells its made for.

I know that there has to be some balancing algorithms for the spell decks but you know, Chaos!. Sometimes i like that i have a 'bad' deck such as five bolts, blobs, goblins etc as it means i have to come up with ingenious win strategy. The game would start to get dull (not really, but, you know) if you knew each wizard had two mount, undead, bolts etc.

Love all the updates though, as i said to someone its like christmas day every few weeks!

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