Do you think mqgic bow is worth casting?

Discussion and questions about the latest version of Chaos Reborn. Not for bugs, but for comments about the game play.
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RafiRomero
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Re: Do you think mqgic bow is worth casting?

Post by RafiRomero » Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:35 pm

Hmm, it is only 33 every turn vs a creature as slow as a zombie. Vs any creature with a move of 2, you get punched if you take the shot and fail. I don't even mind that it is 3 range, low strength, more that with a 40% fail-chance, I will never cast it unless I have a "free" turn (not threatened, and am already ahead in the game, same as Obsilium and Ped209), which is rare in a match vs a decent opponent, so I'll often just save it for burning or burn it these days. I actually do cast dwarf more often than bow these days:)
I wasn't so much asking "is the bow any good" as "do you usually cast or burn it": the emerald dragon is pretty good, but I'll often burn it as it is usually a hard cast (I like the emerald dragon, however, it is funny when someone gets a real one:).
60% makes it even less of an attractive double-cast.
Now I'd prefer to stick at 60% and get better range, but I'm easy, a higher cast percentage would do too:)
I feel especially that compared to shield (a must-have) and sword (great in combination with stuff), bow is not quite right.
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Re: Do you think mqgic bow is worth casting?

Post by DigitalDuck » Tue Oct 07, 2014 2:14 pm

I don't play nearly often enough to say for sure, but it seems a little underpowered at the moment. I think a range increase of 1 when upgrading (once) would help a lot - it's still possible with many creatures to whack the wizard before they get a chance to fire, and creatures with movement two still only need to fend off one arrow for their chance; it only has any real effect on slow moving creatures like the zombie.

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goldendragon76
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Re: Do you think mqgic bow is worth casting?

Post by goldendragon76 » Tue Oct 07, 2014 6:49 pm

I rarely burn bow, sword or shield as I think they are all too useful to lose but once I found out how small the buff is for casting them again I now always burn duplicates.
You mentioned that the bow should have a range of 4 as this is effectively what the gooey blob has but I would rather the range of the blob was reduced to 3 by getting rid of the guaranteed spread to surrounding creatures and have the spread made random again. Also I think gooey blob should require line of sight as in the original. At the moment you can feel that you are safe hiding behind a wall of tangle vine and have a bodyguard of creatures next to you but an enemy wizard can just chuck a blob straight through the vine wall and blob up your wizard and all his creatures. I know you love the blob and you didn't even ask about that so I will stop typing now...

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Re: Do you think mqgic bow is worth casting?

Post by Sephorin » Tue Oct 07, 2014 6:56 pm

goldendragon76 wrote:I would rather the range of the blob was reduced to 3 by getting rid of the guaranteed spread to surrounding creatures and have the spread made random again.

For what it's worth, I definitely agree.

I will be interested to see what Mr. Gollop decides to do with the bow. I wonder if he thinks it's underpowered right now?
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Re: Do you think mqgic bow is worth casting?

Post by SpiteAndMalice » Tue Oct 07, 2014 7:04 pm

goldendragon76 wrote:I rarely burn bow, sword or shield as I think they are all too useful to lose but once I found out how small the buff is for casting them again I now always burn duplicates.
You mentioned that the bow should have a range of 4 as this is effectively what the gooey blob has but I would rather the range of the blob was reduced to 3 by getting rid of the guaranteed spread to surrounding creatures and have the spread made random again. Also I think gooey blob should require line of sight as in the original. At the moment you can feel that you are safe hiding behind a wall of tangle vine and have a bodyguard of creatures next to you but an enemy wizard can just chuck a blob straight through the vine wall and blob up your wizard and all his creatures. I know you love the blob and you didn't even ask about that so I will stop typing now...


I've always quite enjoyed that you don't need LoS with blob, but the auto spread to surrounding creatures is a bit much. I think blob should act in as random a way as possible.
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Re: Do you think mqgic bow is worth casting?

Post by RafiRomero » Tue Oct 07, 2014 7:05 pm

goldendragon76 wrote:I know you love the blob and you didn't even ask about that so I will stop typing now...

:D Yeah, I've loved the blob in all its incarnations, I can't decide any more if I prefer the older tougher range-3 blob, or the new weaker, spreadier, range 4 blob:). I like that it is a no-line-of-sight spell, it gives it a unique ability. <3 blob.
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Re: Do you think mqgic bow is worth casting?

Post by Ped209 » Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:44 am

I like the new blob, at first the guaranteed spread was a nightmare but I like it now. When you know what is going to happen you can account for it better in both attack and defence.

Regarding the bow I would like to see the range fixed at 4. I don't mind it being weak if it has a good range. I would prefer that over it being strong and having a short range. I like that the range doesn't increase with subsequent casts, it keeps it in line with the other weapons. If it was strong with a short range it would be too similar to the bolt.

while it is weak with a short range and low(ish) cast chance I think it is much less of a compelling cast compared to the sword and shield.

If anything I'd like to see the shield be the most difficult cast out of the weapons.
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Re: Do you think mqgic bow is worth casting?

Post by Ped209 » Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:10 am

The current kill chances on undead with the bow are the following:

Zombie: 33% Kill - 0% Retreat
Skeleton: 54% Kill - 13% Retreat
HellHound: 29% Kill - 5% Retreat
Vampire: 28% Kill - 6% Retreat

Those creatures attacking wizard (used arcane for the example)

Zombie: 18% Kill - 15% Retreat
Skeleton: 32% Kill - 11% Retreat
HellHound: 29% Kill - 14% Retreat - Ranged: 45% paralyze - 11% Retreat
Vampire: 31% Kill - 12% Retreat

With the Vampire having a movement range of 3 and be flying, the hellhound having a movement range of 3 and an a ranged attack of 3 and the skeleton having a movement range of 2 for the purposes of slaying undead you are far better of with a sword than a bow. In nearly all circumstances you will be able to get 1 shot off that probably won't kill before the undead unit can attack you. Once the undead creature is next to you you can no longer use the bow, so if you don't have a sword you're in trouble.

Of course there are many variations like terrain and other creatures being in the way to consider and the bow can be useful against other creatures than undead, but I still think it is currently the least attractive weapon.

I'd either like to see it swap places with the shield in terms of cast %, or stay increase in range by 1 so that you have more chance of getting a couple of shots away before the undead close in.
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Re: Do you think mqgic bow is worth casting?

Post by Tess » Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:32 am

Ped209 wrote:If anything I'd like to see the shield be the most difficult cast out of the weapons.


In original Chaos there was the magic knife (weaker, easier than sword) and magic armour (stronger, more difficult than shield). I'd like to see these variants implemented again. Personally I find the sword the most useful at the moment because it offers a very powerful 'free' attack when sat on a mount and is effective against everything. If anything I think the sword boost is too high for a single spell at its current cast %. The shield I think should also have a weaker boost but then I'd like to see magic armour implemented which should do what the shield does now - and combining shield and armour should be allowed. The bow for me is a nice-to-have tho I won't be too upset if I don't get it, but if I dont have a magic sword I feel really underpowered. I'd be interested to see what the bow is like with range 4 - I suspect from previous experience it would become the most useful weapon at that point, even with weak attack.

I prefer the weaker blob. It 'feels' about right at the moment. It spreads fast and kills many creatures, but if you do manage to attack it it's a surprise if it doesn't die. As for the guaranteed spread... I dunno. I'm getting used to it. It's really strong of course, but you can plan for it.

It would be interesting to see other 'splash damage' spells like, say, a fireball which hits everything at one-hex-range from the target hex with a certain attack. Useful for clearing blobs or bunches of rats. Not so useful against magic fire though when that makes its appearance!

Speaking of magic fire, I think that one should be a) more powerful than blob, b) have a shorter cast range, c) no guaranteed spread when cast, d) be particularly effective against undead, blobs and trees.

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Re: Do you think mqgic bow is worth casting?

Post by Kahangriel » Wed Oct 08, 2014 1:19 pm

Ped209 wrote:In nearly all circumstances you will be able to get 1 shot off that probably won't kill before the undead unit can attack you. Once the undead creature is next to you you can no longer use the bow, so if you don't have a sword you're in trouble.


Yes, but the good thing about the bow is that you can shoot it and retreat. That way, it can be very difficult for a creature (especially if it only has a movement of 1-2 hexes) to reach the bow-wielding wizard.
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