v0.20 - Too Many Mega Spells

Discussion and questions about the latest version of Chaos Reborn. Not for bugs, but for comments about the game play.
Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:20 pm

  • Burn/boost is one of my favourite additions to the game. I do agree that now there is too much mana (especially towards the end of the game). I loved the way it worked before hats and before the wizard-kill-mana-surge. The only hat I liked was hat of heroism, which is kindof permanently on anyway now due to mana-surge (which I also like, just not for a wizard-kill).
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    RafiRomero
     
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Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:32 pm

  • There's definitely too many high powered spells being cast at the moment and the rare and special has become common place, but then the first thing to consider is; are we currently playing with a set of low level equipment or is it high level... The hat of time especially is very powerful as an aid to acquiring mana.

    If we are playing with a model that is similar to that intended in the final game then I think there's also a danger alongside too many mega spells of an overall situation of inflation in the levels and powers of creatures , the Giant Rat and maybe the Goblin aside there's not much cannon fodder any more and games of multiple dragons circling the battlefield are starting to become ordinary. (What's happened between the zombie and the skeleton btw? I'm sure that zombies used to be weaker) What happens then, do we then need a higher powered creature that rarer still to top them all, and then how long until that also becomes common? It's not something that I'd like to see happen.

    With regards to mana, it is having a large influence and has discussed before, the law chaos balance is becoming less important, and the illusion mechanic is also becoming less important, this for me is taking away from 2 great game mechanics of the original chaose and replacing them with a lesser one of mana boosting. As such I do like DDs suggestion that mana should have a percentage based influence, however it is also true that there's a potential danger with that that low level creatures then become the only one that are boosted rather than high level one which greatly lessens the point of trying to gain mana.

    The solution I'd propose is therefore to just reduce the overall value of mana when it's spent. Make it cost 5 MPs (for example) to increase the by 1% the chance of casting a creature rather than just 1 MP. (You could also decrease the amount that is gained, but I wouldn't like to gain mana by decimal points).

    Whilst we're at it, I also don't think it's great that people are using Gooey Blob as a way to farm mana points, people are no longer casting it as an obstacle to opposition, it's becoming just an alternative to Magic Bolt.
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Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:20 pm

  • I'd also say that any change to the effects of mana on spell casting chances via boosting shouldn't also apply to the law/chaos balance.

    10% Law should always give an absolute 10% increase in the chances of casting all creatures.
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Sun Oct 12, 2014 11:01 am

  • I agree that there is currently too much mana being given out especially in games with more players where there is more creatures and wizards to kill but I think it would be better to just reduce the amounts being given out rather than making any radical changes to the current system.
    I have always found it strange that mana and victory points are given for summoning illusions when this requires neither skill or luck. Obviously you could not give mana/vp's for real creatures only as you would be able to work out what was real and what was an illusion by keeping an eye on the vp totals. I think it may be better if mana/vp's are given out for killing things only and not for casts of any sort.
    I think that hats should possibly have some other role other than to give you more mana as well. I haven't thought of any ideas about what they could do instead though...
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Sun Oct 12, 2014 2:25 pm

  • Abilities-based hats might work, like Hat of Vampirism could grant wizard leech ability. I was also trying to think of some board-wide effects (either temporary and controlled use, or weaker and permanent). Hat of undeath: Wizard is undead (could be annoying). If we anyone wants to discuss further, should probably go to a new thread.
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Wed Oct 15, 2014 4:34 am

  • How about this for a compromise?

    Spells whose current casting chance is 50% or less need two mana for each percent increased. Staff percentage caps will still be with respect to percent increased rather than mana spent.

    Under my suggestion, a person with the staff of dragons can boost their dragons by 60%, only it will cost 60 mana (instead of 30 under the current system). The flight of dragons would then require 20 additional mana to simply get to 50% once the mega spell is obtained. The system will also reward players that spend time getting chaos to +11% in order to get their manticore boosting mana to become more effective. The reason I put the cap at 50% and below is to make it slightly harder to rush a pegasus early.

    Comments? This is certainly less mana-intensive than DD's suggestion, while satisfying his desire to make rarer creatures harder to cast.
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Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:59 pm

  • Obsilium wrote:Comments? This is certainly less mana-intensive than DD's suggestion, while satisfying his desire to make rarer creatures harder to cast.


    ... In what way is it less mana-intensive?

    DigitalDuck wrote:It doesn't have to be "1 mana = 1%"; it could be 3% for each mana point, for example (requiring 50 mana to boost a Dragon from 20% to 50%, or 25 with the Staff of Dragons (if that's how it works)). It's not about the explicit numbers used, merely the idea that X mana points should boost e.g. Elephants and Hydras by the same amount relative to their original casting chance.

    If it's 1 mana = 2%, then 50 mana points should be required to double the probability of a spell succeeding. If it's 1 mana = 5%, then 20 mana points should be required to double the probability of a spell succeeding. But right now, it's 50 for elephants and 20 for hydras.


    If it were 1 mana = 3%, boosting a dragon from 20% to 80% with the Staff of Dragons would only require 50 mana, which is less than you've stated; other creatures would require even less mana. And my desire isn't to make rarer creatures harder to cast, but to make spending mana points on easy spells actually viable.

    By creating a limit where it suddenly doubles the linear % increase, you haven't solved the problem - there is still no reason to boost a Goblin, for example, as the mana cost is still more than the tiny boost is worth. Elephants are no longer viable; being permanently at the 50% level, it's much better to boost an ever-so-slightly Law Pegasus, except they won't be boosted either as Dragons and Hydras still have the upper hand here. Changing the limit or scale would only change which creature is the Boosted One.

    The proportional method doesn't suffer from this; rather than any sudden change in effectiveness, it stays steady the whole way down. Doubling the % chance of casting an Elephant is the same as doubling the % chance of casting a Hydra; something that's not true in the current system or your suggested system.
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Wed Oct 15, 2014 4:20 pm

  • I definitely underestimated the difference between a boost of 1% and 3% in DD's system. In fact, a 3% increase would decrease mana required for anything with a base casting chance above 33%. From my experience, what that tells me is that people will still not boost goblins and instead boost centaurs, giants, manticores, vampires and midrange threats in general. Early game boosting would probably go into the 60-80% creatures. In my opinion, once you have a secure position, an extra goblin is semi-superfluous, if you get it its an extra creature but its not the end of the world if you don't. My mana usually goes towards creature all-ins if I have pressure and a significant spatial advantage and towards key creatures and threats otherwise. Most of the time, if I had a choice between casting a mount (without one currently) and a hydra, I would go for the mount. A hydra is very situational, having only movement 2 without flying.

    To summarize, I was wrong about DD's system for higher values than 1% (I still stand by my criticism of a base 1%, being a nerf completely down the board). I could see the value in testing a percentage somewhere between 2-3% and seeing the effect it has on gameplay. It wouldn't surprise me if the 3% case actually exacerbates the initial problem discussed in this thread, that of too many mega spells.
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Wed Oct 15, 2014 5:11 pm

  • Obsilium wrote:I definitely underestimated the difference between a boost of 1% and 3% in DD's system. In fact, a 3% increase would decrease mana required for anything with a base casting chance above 33%. From my experience, what that tells me is that people will still not boost goblins and instead boost centaurs, giants, manticores, vampires and midrange threats in general. Early game boosting would probably go into the 60-80% creatures. In my opinion, once you have a secure position, an extra goblin is semi-superfluous, if you get it its an extra creature but its not the end of the world if you don't. My mana usually goes towards creature all-ins if I have pressure and a significant spatial advantage and towards key creatures and threats otherwise. Most of the time, if I had a choice between casting a mount (without one currently) and a hydra, I would go for the mount. A hydra is very situational, having only movement 2 without flying.


    That might be true, but also remember that in the (e.g.) 3% system, boosting a Goblin from 90% to 100% would only require 4 mana points, which is a relatively small amount and might not even be missed - while it's a practically superfluous boost, it's also a practically free one.

    Definitely agreed about mount vs. Hydra (although that's mainly because I think the mounts are a little overpowered at the moment). A mounted wizard has little to worry about, so that would be a priority choice over a Hydra. But generally speaking, you still get a much bigger reward when boosting the 20%-30% creatures, and that shouldn't be the case.

    Obsilium wrote:To summarize, I was wrong about DD's system for higher values than 1% (I still stand by my criticism of a base 1%, being a nerf completely down the board).


    Oh, of course. I wasn't suggesting that 1% was actually used, that was just to show how it would work - I hadn't even considered what value it should actually be at that point (and still haven't, really).

    Obsilium wrote:I could see the value in testing a percentage somewhere between 2-3% and seeing the effect it has on gameplay. It wouldn't surprise me if the 3% case actually exacerbates the initial problem discussed in this thread, that of too many mega spells.


    Looking at the numbers, I'd suggest a little below 2%, actually. Somewhere around 1.7%, so at around 60% creatures start to get >1% linear increase per mana point.


    And sorry, I was just a bit peeved because this has happened quite often - an idea seemingly dismissed because the number being used as an example doesn't work, when numbers are the easiest thing to change. It's like assuming someone is homeless because they gave you their house number wrong.
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