Mounts

Discussion and questions about the latest version of Chaos Reborn. Not for bugs, but for comments about the game play.
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gary
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Mounts

Post by gary » Thu Oct 09, 2014 1:30 pm

While these have always been a big part of the game, given the game is evolving for a new generation etc, isn't about time that having a mount isn't like having a second life.

By all means have them offer a high level of protection for the rider but don't have it so that you need to kill it before you can kill the wizard.

It is too easy for wizards to hide behind their mount and ride about feeling all smug and invincible knowing full well it will take twice the luck for them to die.

It would be a lot more fair and fun to have this air of safety stripped away some as it is Chaos after all.

Selective Targeting is what I suggest.

For example, what is an elf's or centaur's stock and trade? Being able to shoot their arrows with great accuracy and effectiveness. It is their thing.

So what are we saying, faced with a wizard on an elephant for example, they are completely incapable and stupid of targeting the wizard and only ever able to hit the mount? Years of training and experience and they cant hit a large object on top of a creature but can easily hit a bullseye a few inches in diameter over a great distance and in windy conditions while being pulled on a cart by a horse.

Why not have it so that when faced with a mounted wizard, they have a choice. For example, choice 1, they have a 75% chance taking out the mount with their arrow, choice 2 they have a 45% chance of taking out the rider. Please not these numbers I just made up and are in no way based on any mathematical calculations what so ever.

This would address what I see as a great unfairness in the game as you don't get a mount every deck and why should a wizard that does have such a huge advantage.

Also it would mean the person with the choice has a greater choice to make, do they go for the risky shot that may not work and leave them in big trouble if they miss or do they go for the more safe shot that at least gives them a chance to turn the odds in their favour.

You don't need to have it for all projectiles such as rocks or manitcore arrowy things etc but just have it for elves, centaurs and magic bolts.
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Re: Mounts

Post by DigitalDuck » Thu Oct 09, 2014 3:59 pm

Supported. Personally I'd make it true for all projectiles for simplicity and consistency, but that's not important right now.

A mount should offer complete protection from melee attacks. But wizards on mounts are basically invincible at the moment, as they effectively have increased stats, two lives, and an extra attack each turn.

Having no increased protection against ranged attacks would help balance this; perhaps being on a mount could add one or two to their defence, but otherwise wizards should stay "glass cannons" and always have a weakness.
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Tess
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Re: Mounts

Post by Tess » Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:59 pm

I can see that mounts are a bit odd in the way they completely protect the rider. This will be especially frustrating when Raise Dead comes in and every wizard wants to be riding an undead mount that gives them immunity to many attacks.

Why not have a small chance of hitting/killing the wizard when attacking a mount rather than having to choose a target? We can just assume that the wizard is being targeted and a mounted wizard is harder to hit, but a missed attack might kill the mount instead. Obviously the % kill chance for wizard and mount would need to be calculated appropriately.

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Re: Mounts

Post by ustolemytiger » Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:13 pm

Hello, i'm afraid i must disagree with this idea:(

Having a mount is extremely important for defence but it does not render a wizard invincible. I believe the double hit on a mounted wizard means that you cannot just slut rush a wizard with a weak creature and get a lucky kill, you must back up your attack.

Not being mounted is by no means an auto lose situation, it just means you have to play a different game.

It is a good idea though no doubt, and maybe i'm just being puritanical. I think nerfing mounts in this way would seriously under power them and make ranged creatures that are already very powerful even more so. For example a mounted wizard would still be vulnerable to dragon flame.

In response to the logical realism of the argument then you can imagine that shooting a mounted wizard is impossible as they are essentially a fast moving small target!

Edit:Just read Tess' post and the undead mount argument is a very good point that has me rethinking a bit...

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Re: Mounts

Post by RafiRomero » Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:18 pm

I also like the way mounts work at the moment from a gameplay point of view. I'd also agree if you're not mounted you have options, and vs a mounted wizard Magical Attack is just so much fun (especially in multiplayer, you dissolve their mount and let another player swoop in for the kill:).
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Re: Mounts

Post by SpiteAndMalice » Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:44 pm

I agree with tiger and rafi above - Mounts work fine as they are, there's plenty of ways to kill a mounted wizard, and you would simply under power mounts and over power ranged attackers if you changed it.

Raise dead being cast on a mount in the original chaos was one of the beautiful aspects of the game. (As was casting Raise dead on a dragon).

Overall I don't like the arguments to make mounts work less as than 100% as mounts, or make undead attackable by non undead, flying creature not always able to fly, or range creatures sometimes forgetting where they put their bow... Chaos had a strong Rock Paper Scissors way of working, whatever your opponent did then there was usually a way to combat it, and the spells you got given defined your strategy, you then adapted accordingly, and it made you think about how to, it made every game different. Diluting the positive effects of the different types of creatures is not a good direction imho. Chaos reborn would become just a generic strategy game, you might as well only have one creature type in it if that's where you're going to go.
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Re: Mounts

Post by SpiteAndMalice » Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:45 pm

RafiRomero wrote:I also like the way mounts work at the moment from a gameplay point of view. I'd also agree if you're not mounted you have options, and vs a mounted wizard Magical Attack is just so much fun (especially in multiplayer, you dissolve their mount and let another player swoop in for the kill:).


I'm with you on that, there's nothing better than playing against a mounted wizard who thinks that their safe and then you hit them with a mounted attack at just the worst moment. ;-)
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Re: Mounts

Post by SpiteAndMalice » Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:50 pm

I don't think possibly that you shouldn't be able to dismount whilst blobbed however. It kinda feels like a bug rather than intentional that you can do that.
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Re: Mounts

Post by DigitalDuck » Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:44 pm

SpiteAndMalice wrote:I agree with tiger and rafi above - Mounts work fine as they are, there's plenty of ways to kill a mounted wizard, and you would simply under power mounts and over power ranged attackers if you changed it.


... No there isn't? There's only one way of killing a mounted wizard, and that's killing the mount first, and then the wizard.

SpiteAndMalice wrote:Overall I don't like the arguments to make mounts work less as than 100% as mounts, or make undead attackable by non undead, flying creature not always able to fly, or range creatures sometimes forgetting where they put their bow... Chaos had a strong Rock Paper Scissors way of working, whatever your opponent did then there was usually a way to combat it, and the spells you got given defined your strategy, you then adapted accordingly, and it made you think about how to, it made every game different. Diluting the positive effects of the different types of creatures is not a good direction imho. Chaos reborn would become just a generic strategy game, you might as well only have one creature type in it if that's where you're going to go.


Forget about the mounts. We want a Rock-Paper-Scissors way to combat mounted wizards. But right now, mounts are basically a free extra life and stat boost for the wizard. The mounts can be killed in exactly the same way as every other creature, but it's an attack that was more likely to kill the wizard themselves. Allowing wizards to stay vulnerable to ranged attacks would actually add to the Rock-Paper-Scissors tactics, as it means that mounted wizards now have a weakness.
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Re: Mounts

Post by Sephorin » Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:12 pm

SpiteAndMalice wrote:I don't think possibly that you shouldn't be able to dismount whilst blobbed however. It kinda feels like a bug rather than intentional that you can do that.

Funny, I always got the same impression of this mechanic. :)

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